rhialto wrote:

Never encountered in all my days, but my first instinct is "a prone attacker cannot attack". I could foresee a circumstance where a character was prone and there was an assailant behind them, in bodily contact. Then I'd likely levy a -2 or -4 attack roll modifier, and WC would also factor in (e.g., a dagger would be easier to wield in a backwards attack than a longsword).

Admittedly, it's not a graceful swing, but it is something. And it's life or death so it's a desperate reaction. I went with a phase one 1/2 move twist and a -2.

Last edited by Iron Ranger (5/19/2022 8:56 am)

Personally, we watch eastern martial films, there is going to be one spinning from prone, legs flailing as if to strike at another; kicking their knees, hamstring the back of knees, so the other will collapse, causing the assailant to withdraw or be hit.

And same thing with a sword or axe; that swinging it around one's head from prone is not as difficult as one thinks if aiming for a leg and a warrior should be train for any possibility, not him standing in place sword-fencing? Still he vulnerable, hence the -4 AC and some mention as I searched through PHB of no shield being allowed, but uncertain if that was for some grappling attack? Still it would make sense if someone was pushed to either protect self with shield or attack with sword, but not both. The -2 you suggested Iron Ranger makes sense, it not easy, but not impossible.

But it should not be common, no warrior wants to be knocked prone. But the negatives can be constant, for example: did he fall on a wet glass covered floor? a banana? or was he bowled over by a raging bull or an ogre?

How would a Magician respond or an agile Thief? Will some person with a Con of 4 rise as quickly or as equal as one with Con 18?

Make adventurer roll a Test of Strength to attack or a Test of Dexterity if using a rapier of dagger to complete manoeuvre? Depending how he got prone in first place?

Or a test of Constitution for hitting floor and not have wind taken out of them? Of course hitting mud is better than hitting jagged rocks, so bonuses and negatives apply.

1/2 move makes sense also... if not a 1/4 if he fighting and rising and spinning and rolling and avoiding a giant's foot. Also heavy armour might slow some. As state an agile thief should be fast with a knife not a warrior on full plate spinning to his feet with a greatsword. Go for the groin Boo!!!

The list is endless, it is making the rule in the moment that in the end makes sense?




 

I probably would not allow at all except under unusual circumstances.

rhialto wrote:

Never encountered in all my days, but my first instinct is "a prone attacker cannot attack".[...] I'd likely levy a -2 or -4 attack roll modifier [..]

I totally have encountered this in several game systems over the years.  In systems where getting up from prone takes your whole action, every player wants to attack from prone, even at a penalty, rather than spend that round not getting to roll something.

So that means it's telling that p. 264's "Table 139: Attack Roll Modifiers" does not include any entry for Attacker is Prone.
   Surely if attacking from prone were possible it would be at a penalty.  Sure, a movie-hero could hamstring their opponent from prone, but doing so should require them to heroically overcome more than just the -1 penalty for 'defender is in a higher position'.  They have options, but fewer than a standing combatant's, and they are therefore easier to predict and to defend against, amounting to a penalty worse than that -1...

And since there's nothing listed for it, I suspect the intention was that prone characters are not supposed to be able to attack at all, but are assumed to get back to their feet before renewing the fight.  (If they weren't treated as prone only temporarily because of the attacker having had the drop on them; per p. 266's "A surprized party may be considered prone if caught completely unawares (e.g., sleeping, eating, reading).").

But if a prone creature could not attack, that would mean that Pyromancers' Fire Web spells, which keep the victim prone for multiple rounds, would be an instant, no-challenge, encounter-winner.  And we don't really want that, do we?

Last edited by Osric_of_O (12/11/2024 7:58 pm)

rhialto wrote:

Osric_of_O wrote:

But if a prone creature could not attack, that would mean that Pyromancers' Fire Web spells, which keep the victim prone for multiple rounds, would be an instant, no-challenge, encounter-winner.  And we don't really want that, do we?
 

Why not just treat a prone defender by the RAW, i.e. -4AC? They're not completely defenseless (automatic hit), just more vulnerable.

They would be that, but are they able to attack from prone?  And for all that their AC is penalised, are their attacks not penalised for attacking from prone?
 

Osric_of_O wrote:

But if a prone creature could not attack, that would mean that Pyromancers' Fire Web spells, which keep the victim prone for multiple rounds, would be an instant, no-challenge, encounter-winner.  And we don't really want that, do we?

Lots of spell are instant encounter winners, depending on the circumstances. That's why it's important not to tamper with the rules that make spells a limited commodity. If a character uses an encounter-winning spell now, they won't have it in the next encounter, when they might need it more. Today the PCs get an unfair victory, and tomorrow they get screwed by bad rolls. IMO it all comes out more or less even in the end.

To me it makes no real world sense to allow prone attacks (especially melee attacks) as a general rule. I would permit them in very limited circumstances (a deliberately prone character sniping with a crossbow or blowgun, perhaps). I might also accept an argument from a monk character that he might be able to make some martial arts attack from a prone position. Everyone else has to stand up first!

What if it were being used as tactic?  Maybe as a means of surprise or getting a shot at the soft underbelly of a beast?  Possibly something like this:   
 

lige wrote:

What if it were being used as tactic?  Maybe as a means of surprise or getting a shot at the soft underbelly of a beast?  Possibly something like this:   
 

That's what I meant in my last comment: I might allow prone attacks if the character was deliberately prone (sniping with a crossbow, or perhaps lying in wait beside a doorway to stab at the legs of someone passing through). Someone who had been knocked prone? No. They need to regain their feet first.