!!insidediv!!



Being the Official Discussion Forum for HYPERBOREA®, a role-playing game of swords, sorcery, and weird science-fantasy


Visit us at the HYPERBOREA web site!


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

4/04/2014 10:19 pm  #1


A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Grettings!

I was wondering how other Judges deal with parties as diverse like the one mentioned on the title of this thread.

Do you restrict the classes allowed on the game? You don't worry about it at all?

When I find myself in this situation I request my players to come up with a backstory of how their characters with such distinct backgrounds know each other and why they work together (they don't have to like each other but must comply with at least those 2 points).

Inquiring minds want to know and thanks for reading.

Last edited by ajtheronin (4/04/2014 10:27 pm)

 

4/04/2014 10:35 pm  #2


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

I generally figure they'll work it out among themselves. It hasn't come up yet in AS&SH. Everyone is Neutral except my NPC CG ranger, who is very dubious about the whole enterprise with these freaks. But in our regular AD&D game, anyone who wants to play Evil pretty much knows to keep things under wraps until he/she is powerful enough to make a big play. My players . . . discourage paladins. The second to last one was taken out by friendly fire before he could detect evil. My gut feeling is that paladins demand a certain kind of game, where alignments match up. But I also consider a lot of that to be "players' business." They can make what they want. I just let them know whether they hit their paladin in the back of the head or not.

I also think the AD&D barbarian is irredeemably broken. The AS&SH one seems much more like what it should be.

One of my players has a berserker rolled up and waiting in the wings. I'm pretty excited for his debut. He's CN and and Amazonian. And male. All sorts of backstory are summed up in just those character-sheet entries. That's all we need to move forward, I find.

 

4/05/2014 5:18 am  #3


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

My problem lately is that everyone wants to be the Warlock...

I rarely restrict classes, but i do like the players to come up with some backstory to the characters. Depending on the type of players i'm dealing with creating a backstory is either automatic, or it requires some prodding on my part. I generally like to be involved in creating a backstory and sometimes i even create backstories for my player's characters, because it allows me to see things developing beforehand during play.

My type of players are usally reluctant to play evil and the few times anyone has tried it has rarely been a success, but YMMV. I find that my players usually embrace the cooperative elements of the game, both tactical and creative, and only rarely tries to compete with each other. And i am very happy with that  


Níu man ek heima, níu íviðjur,
mjötvið mæran fyr mold neðan.
(Völuspá)
(Nine worlds I knew,the nine in the tree with mighty roots beneath the mold)
Realmsofmelpomene
 

4/05/2014 6:46 am  #4


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Is there any reason why you can't have more than one Warlock? I guess I'm thinking that maybe you should tweak your campaign so that there are many Warlocks, perhaps in different factions or whatever. (Sort of like in Harry Potter, where everyone has some magic talents. But more adult.)


Marv / Finarvyn
DCC playtester (2011), S&W WhiteBox Author (2009), C&C playtester (2003), Metamorphosis Alpha since 1976. OD&D Player since 1975
 

4/05/2014 10:21 am  #5


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Paladins are the only class I've had a hard time explaining their presence in the game world, from a lore perspective; they just feel like a square peg in a round hole. I even read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" again just to wrap my head around the archetype, divorced from years of D&D conventions. Luckily, so far, nobody in my little band of newbies has any interest in playing one. They all want to be warlocks, cataphracts, barbarians, thieves and pyromancers.

 

4/05/2014 10:53 am  #6


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

finarvyn wrote:

Is there any reason why you can't have more than one Warlock? I guess I'm thinking that maybe you should tweak your campaign so that there are many Warlocks, perhaps in different factions or whatever. (Sort of like in Harry Potter, where everyone has some magic talents. But more adult.)

I had 2 rangers in the campaign at one point and one had much better characteristics.  Rather than develop a different character based on role-playing he (the one with lower cha) griped all the time. 

My fear especially for new folks is that they differentiate by things like class.  One is cool the second is competition for the niche in the group.  The one with the higher characteristics was subsequntly killed by a cyclops.  So much for the importance of Characteristics in a campaign.

If your players can differentiate (via class of magic and / or roleplaying) and find their role in the group then why not have all warlocks?
 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

4/05/2014 12:10 pm  #7


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

There are certainly going to be some hairy situations. For example, I was recently running a game that included a necromancer and a barbarian. After killing some enemies, the necromancer decided to raise one of the slain to be his undead slave. The barbarian cut the undead slave down. The necromancer shrugged and said he'd do it again, eventually. Now, I did make a point of reminding the barbarian that as the slain enemy was being risen to undeath, he felt his hackles raising, and that he felt a sick pit in his stomach. That was enough for him to realize, yes, he wanted to destroy the thing, even if it was going to be a boon to the party in some way. Can these things lead to inter-party conflict? Sure.


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

4/05/2014 12:21 pm  #8


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

I generally let the players figure this sort of thing out and then let things play out at the table. However, it usual for my group to play games with a theme, so part of the backstory is assumed. For instance, the last campaign I ran involved a crusade of sorts and all the characters were involved somehow, whether as members of chivalric orders, religious orders or soldiers attached to such. Like has been said though, none of this means that individual characters have to like one another.


ravengodgames.blogspot.com ~ cartography, writing, game design
Author, Forgotten Fane of the Coiled Goddess
 

4/05/2014 12:24 pm  #9


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

I also hope to keep them worried enough about getting out alive that they don't have too much time for intra-party squabbling. The mountain ape just doesn't care what alignment you are!

 

4/05/2014 12:30 pm  #10


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Handy Haversack wrote:

I also hope to keep them worried enough about getting out alive that they don't have too much time for intra-party squabbling. The mountain ape just doesn't care what alignment you are!

That's how I see it but even then, without much effort from my part inter-party conflict will happen.

Thing is I don't care since my players seem to enjoy it. The player using the Paladin is best buddy with the Necromancer. I know that eventually their character will clash but so do they and they seem to look forward to it way more than I do.

     Thread Starter
 

4/05/2014 12:54 pm  #11


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

ajtheronin wrote:

Handy Haversack wrote:

I also hope to keep them worried enough about getting out alive that they don't have too much time for intra-party squabbling. The mountain ape just doesn't care what alignment you are!

That's how I see it but even then, without much effort from my part inter-party conflict will happen.

Thing is I don't care since my players seem to enjoy it. The player using the Paladin is best buddy with the Necromancer. I know that eventually their character will clash but so do they and they seem to look forward to it way more than I do.

That's pretty cool, ajtheronin.


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

4/05/2014 2:03 pm  #12


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

I would be loathe to restrict classes, but also loathe to ignore the conflict entirely. So, I think your idea of requesting the players to create a backstory that explains why conflicting classes might associate makes the most sense. Maybe they have a distant relative in common - or were childhood friends? Maybe they have loved ones wronged by the same person - that they are both seeking? Maybe they both survived a near-death experience together - and now feel a strange kinship that transcends their philosophical disagreements? Maybe the first saved the second's life, even accidentally - and now the second insists on traveling together until the debt is repaid? Perhaps they are both on the run because of a mutual enemy - someone who framed them? Maybe one's lieing to the other and, in time, the players will have to resolve it? Maybe they've been compelled on a life-long quest by a powerful being (sorcerer, demon or god) that they cannot refuse because of something each of them did in their past, either separately or together? With tweaks, I think you can make it work even for three or more conflicting classes (especially the last one).

I think it's actually a potentially fun situation because you have jumpstart the campaign with something a little more creative than "We were both sitting in the same bar looking for other adventurers." You can use that backstory to juice up the regular adventures with little bits and pieces that make the world seem bigger and fuller.

Now, for the record, I'm not one of these guys that insists on elaborate backstories prior to first level. In fact, usually one sentence is enough. In this case though, where you have a few people that would not normally adventure together, it may be helpful.


Blackadder23: Insanely long villain soliloquy, then "Your action?"
BORGO'S PLAYER: I shoot him in the face
 

4/20/2014 4:35 pm  #13


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

I have run into a similar problem: I have a LG Kimmerian Paladin in a party of mostly N vikings, however, the de-facto leader of the party is a CE Berserker (per heredity). Initially the Paladin was a slave to the Berserker but over time, the more moderate party members saw the benifits of having a Paladin and gave him greater freedom (weapons, armor exc.) All the while learning about the disadvantages of having a leader whose greatest pleasure is burying an axe into a fleeing villager's spine. 

Pretty soon it became clear hat the Paladin wouldn't want to remain property, so he sought guidance in Khromarium at a shrine to his diety (under supervision of course). A short side-quest later and the Berserker now technically loves the Paladin and no longer consideres him property.

Now here comes the problem: the rest of the group is still made up of some pretty shifty vikings, the leader is still technically the Berserker who is still Evil (although one N fighter is making most of the decisions as berserkers are not known for strategy) They all want to return to Vikland to cash in that sweet raid loot, but the newly free Paladin likely wants nothing to do with their mostly ill gotten gains (from raiding Kimmerian villages no less!). 

So How is a Ref to keep a party together when their immediate and long-term goals differ so greatly. Any advice is appreciated.

 

4/21/2014 6:32 am  #14


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Ha-klek wrote:

So How is a Ref to keep a party together when their immediate and long-term goals differ so greatly.

My advice would be to ask yourself why you feel it's important to keep them together in the first place

If it were my game, I would suggest to the paladin's player that he could create a new character (or, if there are NPCs routinely traveling with the party, he could take one of them over) for the trip to Vikland while the paladin goes off and does something else.  The paladin could then rejoin the party after they return, if the player so chooses, or the paladin could become a permanent NPC if the player decides he prefers his new character.  Or he could swap back and forth.

It's a common presumption that there is one party which always sticks together and each player has one character that he always plays, but it doesn't have to be that way.  Ars Magica coined the name "troupe-style play" for the playstyle where each player has multiple characters and those characters are mixed and matched to create constantly-shifting parties based on the current storyline (whether that's "I'll bring my rogue because we know there will be a lot of traps" or "my paladin isn't interested in this, so my warlock will go instead").  It's not for every group, of course, but it's worth at least considering if you find yourself asking "why would this party stick together?".

 

4/21/2014 6:58 am  #15


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

nDervish makes a good suggestion. Incidentally, based on what I have read, having a stable of characters was relatively common in the earlier days of the game (OD&D), but this style gradually lost favor over the years as the game and demographic base changed (to the point that it's almost an unfamiliar concept now).

My AD&D 1E group employs the stable style though and we enjoy the flexibility. Within a party, players can sub in different PCs according to the mission (maybe they need an extra cleric), their mood (maybe they want a break from their magic-user) and the logistics (maybe the guy who runs the MU canceled, so you bring in your MU and run two guys this game). Within a campaign, the group can also switch to different level parties according to their mood (may/may not be in the same area). My group has a level 5-7 crew in one spot and a level 1-3 crew in another, for example. When I get my AS&SH game running, I'll encourage people to develop a stable of PCs.

I suppose the main criticism of this style is that it's too "gamey," as some people enjoy deep character immersion when they roleplay ("becoming your character"). It's not a problem for our group though. We're a little more detached from the PCs, for better or worse.


Blackadder23: Insanely long villain soliloquy, then "Your action?"
BORGO'S PLAYER: I shoot him in the face
 

4/21/2014 8:20 am  #16


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

It's a tough nut. I think nDervish has the right of it. It sounds like they've had some good fun with that party but that they've reached a point where in- and out-of-game logic seems to be pulling it apart. You wouldn't even have to lay it all on the paladin's player. Everyone could roll up another char. for the mainland group, characters with slightly different goals if not necessarily alignments. Then you'd always have a choice of games.

Paladins. The rocks against which parties founder. Last time we had one in the game, he was taken out by friendly fire as soon as the fighter realized what he could do. It was all good fun and really well played (and the entire party was killed not long after), so there were no hard feelings among my players. But not every group can roll that way, I figure.

 

4/21/2014 9:09 am  #17


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

The classes aren't the issue as much as the alignments.  Evil / good in the same party for a campaign is asking for inter-party conflict.  If that's cool with you then have at it! On the other hand I've had plenty of PVP from supposedly good characters.

The Paladin should probably roleplay moving on if the party's behavior is testing his alignment at every turn.  On the other hand he may feel his alignment is a personal thing and that he can do the most good by mitigating the behaior of his compatriots.


 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

4/21/2014 11:11 am  #18


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

My personal policy is to have players agree on a party theme and background before anyone starts thinking about their own character. While campaigns in which the PCs got together by coincidence and ended up getting forced to work together can be great fun, I normally run games in which everyone is supposed to work as a team with shared goals.


"Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?"

Spriggan's Den
 

4/21/2014 12:04 pm  #19


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Yora wrote:

My personal policy is to have players agree on a party theme and background before anyone starts thinking about their own character. While campaigns in which the PCs got together by coincidence and ended up getting forced to work together can be great fun, I normally run games in which everyone is supposed to work as a team with shared goals.

 

With you on this!


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

4/21/2014 12:43 pm  #20


Re: A Paladin, a Necromancer and a Barbarian walk into a bar...

Thank you all for the advice! 
After last nights session, we had a group discussion as to how to proceed. Coincidently, both of nDervish's suggestions came up. The party conflict came to a head, and the Paladin nearly cholked the Warlock to death over an escaped slave's execution (some great roleplaying).

Having this party conflict has had interesting consequences, but the group seems to feel that its run its course, so the player of the Paladin has put his character at a moral crossroad: either renounce his faith to travel with these despots (essentially becoming a fighter or cataphract) damning his soul but possibly gaining him enough loot to rebuild his temple in Khromarium (ends justify means style). Or, leave the character in Khromarium penniless but morally intact and make a new character to travel with the party (or adopt an NPC).
The latter option makes more sense from a narritive perspective and it also opens up the possibility of having the Paladin form a Goodish anti-party to stop those voracious vikings, an idea the players seem to like.
Either way I'm excited to see how this plays out, and thank you again for all the responses.
 

 

Board footera






© 2009-2024 North Wind Adventures, LLC. “HYPERBOREA” is a registered trademark of North Wind Adventures, LLC. “Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea,” “AS&SH,” and all other North Wind Adventures product names and their respective logos are trademarks of North Wind Adventures, LLC in the USA and other countries. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.