HYPERBOREA / Melee attack rate

**Posted by GenghisWayne** 9/11/2016 3:01 pm

Hi guys!

Long time listener, first time caller. Many of you (gizmo, chainsaw, and francisca) know me from GaryCon as one of the "Goblins" guys from Orlando (however, I missed last year's event).

Anyhow... I'm looking for a rules interpretation... Is there an upper limit to the number of fighter attacks per round?

A specific example: a 7th-level Ixian Fighter with mastery in Scimitar who dual-wields. Remember the guy that Indian Jones shot in the Cairo market? I believe his attack rate starts at 2/1 but goes to 3/1 for dual wield (not 5/2 according to the dual-wield rules).

Now, let's say he's fighting a pile of 2 HD ninjas in Jhaman Ket. So his attack rate "doubles". So is that 7/2, 4/1, or 6/1? or something else?

I didn't spot a clear answer in my reading of the rules; so I'm curious what everyone thinks the answer is here.

Cheers,
W-

Last edited by GenghisWayne (9/11/2016 3:02 pm)

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 9/11/2016 7:25 pm

Good question.

I guess what is the base? Two-weapon fighting looks to gives 1 extra attack. The "base" attack for 7th level with mastery is 2/1. The Super Heroic fighting boosts that to 4/1. Two-weapon wielding makes that 5/1.

I think that is a conservative ruling. A more generous ruling would have the "base" before doubling be 3/1 and then doubled to 6/1.

I'm not sure you can get that much higher with the rules as written. I'm not sure of a simpler way to interpret two-weapon wielding to get a higher attack rate. It just gives 1 extra attack to your "base" attack rate.

**Posted by mabon5127** 9/11/2016 7:30 pm

gizmomathboy wrote:
Good question.

I guess what is the base? Two-weapon fighting looks to gives 1 extra attack. The "base" attack for 7th level with mastery is 2/1. The Super Heroic fighting boosts that to 4/1. Two-weapon wielding makes that 5/1.

I think that is a conservative ruling. A more generous ruling would have the "base" before doubling be 3/1 and then doubled to 6/1.

I'm not sure you can get that much higher with the rules as written. I'm not sure of a simpler way to interpret two-weapon wielding to get a higher attack rate. It just gives 1 extra attack to your "base" attack rate.

I would rule the conservative way, It seems to be consistent with damage that doubles the base die then adds bonuses.

**Posted by DMPrata** 9/11/2016 7:50 pm

I concur with the esteemed fellows above. Super-heroic fighting doubles the normal melee attack rate from 2/1 to 4/1. Two-weapon fighting grants the attacker one extra attack per melee round. Your Ixian fighter attacks five times per round. Perhaps we could stand to clarify two-weapon fighting in AS&SH™ Second Edition.

**Posted by GenghisWayne** 9/12/2016 6:34 am

5/1 makes sense to me. Thanks for the help!

**Posted by mabon5127** 9/12/2016 6:59 am

DMPrata wrote:
I concur with the esteemed fellows above. Super-heroic fighting doubles the normal melee attack rate from 2/1 to 4/1. Two-weapon fighting grants the attacker one extra attack per melee round. Your Ixian fighter attacks five times per round. Perhaps we could stand to clarify two-weapon fighting in AS&SH™ Second Edition.

I appreciate the effort you go through to pick up on items that may need some further explanation.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 9/12/2016 7:51 am

GenghisWayne wrote:
Long time listener, first time caller. Many of you (gizmo, chainsaw, and francisca) know me from GaryCon as one of the "Goblins" guys from Orlando (however, I missed last year's event).

Hey man! Welcome aboard. I think I recall playing in EOTB's game of D1 in the bar with you at Gary Con VII. Good times!

Incidentally, I had the same question as you when working up some pregens for my Gary Con and NTRPG Con games this year. Also went with super-heroism doubling only the base melee attack rate and not the extra attack that two-weapon fighting confers, if I am not mistaken.

**Posted by francisca** 9/12/2016 1:31 pm

More fodder:

Hastened creatures are able to move at double their normal rates and to make twice as many attacks per combat round; i.e., 1/1 = 2/1, 3/2 = 3/1, 2/1 = 4/1, 5/2 = 5/1, 3/1 = 6/1, and so on.

So...my reading of that is Haste doubles the attacks with the off-hand, as well. So, if GhengisWayne's Ixian Fighter were hasted, then waded in against the 2HD Ninjas, he'd get 8/1 with his on-hand weapon and 2/1 with his off-hand. I would generally not ever be hasted as a human, but then again, I hates me some Ninjas.

Nice to see you here, Wayne!

**Posted by GenghisWayne** 9/12/2016 7:22 pm

Chainsaw wrote:
Hey man! Welcome aboard. I think I recall playing in EOTB's game of D1 in the bar with you at Gary Con VII. Good times!

Indeed. Very fun. I think we were "saved by the bell"; another hour and I think we'd have a TPK.

francisca wrote:
Nice to see you here, Wayne!

Thanks Rich!

**Posted by Ghul** 9/13/2016 6:23 am

DMPrata wrote:
I concur with the esteemed fellows above. Super-heroic fighting doubles the normal melee attack rate from 2/1 to 4/1. Two-weapon fighting grants the attacker one extra attack per melee round. Your Ixian fighter attacks five times per round. Perhaps we could stand to clarify two-weapon fighting in AS&SH™ Second Edition.

I have actually created a table for the skill that should greatly help folks. I'll be sharing it with you soon, Dave!

**Posted by Ghul** 9/13/2016 6:25 am

francisca wrote:
More fodder:

Hastened creatures are able to move at double their normal rates and to make twice as many attacks per combat round; i.e., 1/1 = 2/1, 3/2 = 3/1, 2/1 = 4/1, 5/2 = 5/1, 3/1 = 6/1, and so on.
So...my reading of that is Haste doubles the attacks with the off-hand, as well. So, if GhengisWayne's Ixian Fighter were hasted, then waded in against the 2HD Ninjas, he'd get 8/1 with his on-hand weapon and 2/1 with his off-hand. I would generally not ever be hasted as a human, but then again, I hates me some Ninjas.

Nice to see you here, Wayne!

This could use clarification as well, because like Super Heroic Fighting, it should only double the base melee attacks.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 9/13/2016 9:12 am

Another attack rate to consider is the Berzerker Rage. Just to pile on to the edge cases. :-)

A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker without mastery: 3/1
A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker with mastery: 7/2? (Not sure about this one)
A two-weapon wielding, Hasted raging Berzerker without mastery: 6/1
A two-weapon wielding¸Hasted raging Berzerker with mastery: 7/1? (Not sure about this one since I'm not sure about the un-Hasted rate)

Man, talk about a whirling dervish of death...

**Posted by DMPrata** 9/13/2016 11:31 am

gizmomathboy wrote:
Another attack rate to consider is the Berzerker Rage. Just to pile on to the edge cases. :-)

A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker without mastery: 3/1
A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker with mastery: 7/2? (Not sure about this one)
A two-weapon wielding, Hasted raging Berzerker without mastery: 5/1
A two-weapon wielding¸Hasted raging Berzerker with mastery: 6/1? (Not sure about this one since I'm not sure about the un-Hasted rate)

Man, talk about a whirling dervish of death...

Close! I corrected your haste numbers, based on Jeff's response above. Ghul has spoken, though I could be easily persuaded to allow haste to stack with two-weapon fighting, thereby doubling base melee attacks and granting two off-hand attacks.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 9/13/2016 11:47 am

dmprata, you're right. I didn't fully comprehend/read/whatever what Jeff said above about haste and two-weapon wielding.

It's still kinda nuts what a berzerker can do.

What is the smallest clarification to make? Would it be to refer to a "base" attack rate everywhere? That seems like a lot of searching and replacing.

Interestingly, Slow makes a comment on two-weapon fighting (it negates it for the duration of the spell). Maybe a similar clarification for Haste?

**Posted by Blackadder23** 9/13/2016 3:37 pm

gizmomathboy wrote:
dmprata, you're right. I didn't fully comprehend/read/whatever what Jeff said above about haste and two-weapon wielding.

It's still kinda nuts what a berzerker can do.

You just need to enforce the chance of them going fully berserk, and attacking their friends. Make them pay for those extra attacks.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 9/13/2016 4:01 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
gizmomathboy wrote:
dmprata, you're right. I didn't fully comprehend/read/whatever what Jeff said above about haste and two-weapon wielding.

It's still kinda nuts what a berzerker can do.
You just need to enforce the chance of them going fully berserk, and attacking their friends. Make them pay for those extra attacks.

Blackadder that is the best roll I make as a DM. :-)

Although the group tends to move out of the area as best they can when they see the Berzerker get Enraged.

**Posted by Ghul** 9/28/2016 1:48 pm

DMPrata wrote:
gizmomathboy wrote:
Another attack rate to consider is the Berzerker Rage. Just to pile on to the edge cases. :-)

A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker without mastery: 3/1
A two-weapon wielding raging Berzerker with mastery: 7/2? (Not sure about this one)
A two-weapon wielding, Hasted raging Berzerker without mastery: 5/1
A two-weapon wielding¸Hasted raging Berzerker with mastery: 6/1? (Not sure about this one since I'm not sure about the un-Hasted rate)

Man, talk about a whirling dervish of death...
Close! I corrected your haste numbers, based on Jeff's response above. Ghul has spoken, though I could be easily persuaded to allow haste to stack with two-weapon fighting, thereby doubling base melee attacks and granting two off-hand attacks.

This actually came up in last night's session, and when I asserted that haste doubles the base attack and that the offhand attack is not doubled, there were no complaints to the contrary. A 2/1 fighter getting 4/1 attacks and one offhand is pretty nasty. ;)

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 9/28/2016 3:28 pm

And there we have it. A play tested ruling. :-)

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 9/29/2016 1:59 pm

I've toyed with the idea of using 1:6 as the chance for a berserker to keep on killing. Turning on the Cuisinart sometimes seems a little too much of an easy option, esp. for parties, as you say, who have figured out methods for isolating the berserker after the liver gets chopped.

I wonder if it would be worth coming up with some consequences for *that*: the berserker has to make a save or a CON feat or even a trauma roll or end up having done something terrible to him/herself while isolated: maiming, weapon smashing, gear destroying, madness getting, even auto-gutting. Seems like it could make for a fun table. Blackadder23? You busy?

Though anecdotal experience so far has told me that most berserkers are taken out by their inability to retreat. When the rest of the party "tactically withdraws" (runs screaming), the berserker gets left behind. "Everyone who *doesn't* want to volunteer for this suicide mission, take one step back." "What was that?"

**Posted by mabon5127** 9/29/2016 2:39 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
I've toyed with the idea of using 1:6 as the chance for a berserker to keep on killing. Turning on the Cuisinart sometimes seems a little too much of an easy option, esp. for parties, as you say, who have figured out methods for isolating the berserker after the liver gets chopped.

I wonder if it would be worth coming up with some consequences for *that*: the berserker has to make a save or a CON feat or even a trauma roll or end up having done something terrible to him/herself while isolated: maiming, weapon smashing, gear destroying, madness getting, even auto-gutting. Seems like it could make for a fun table. Blackadder23? You busy?

Though anecdotal experience so far has told me that most berserkers are taken out by their inability to retreat. When the rest of the party "tactically withdraws" (runs screaming), the berserker gets left behind. "Everyone who *doesn't* want to volunteer for this suicide mission, take one step back." "What was that?"

I've run my Keltic adventure with a Berserker 3 times at cons and twice the 1 came face up. Its always good for a laugh.....