HYPERBOREA / Underwater Combat

**Posted by Chainsaw** 5/31/2015 6:18 am

"Players Manual, page 238" wrote:
* Surface dwellers suffer −4 “to hit” penalties when fighting underwater. This penalty may be reduced
over time if the campaign features extensive underwater adventuring.
* Hafted weapons (axes, clubs, flails, hammers, maces, etc.) are extremely difficult to swing; −8 “to hit” penalty and halved damage dice (modifiers applied afterwards).
* Swords (bastard, long, and two-handed) are difficult to use. They suffer −4 “to hit” penalties and
reduced damage dice; i.e., d8 becomes d6, d10 becomes d8, and so on.

I assume the 'underwater fighting' penalty of -4 and the two following weapon penalties of -8 and -4 would be cumulative? So, a fighter swinging an axe swings at -12 and a bastard sword at -8?

Also, I did not see any reference anywhere to movement rates being altered underwater. Did I miss that? If not, any suggestions? I would think movement would be extremely slow for anyone in any sort of armor with any sort of gear. I'm imagining a deep sea diver with lead boots slowly trudging through the muck one step at a time.

**Posted by The_Great_Lestrade** 5/31/2015 7:03 pm

i'm unsure of the rules, but i'd half movement under water and generally give any under water creatures initiative in any situation that requires it.

I would read the hit pens as cumulative, so even if you just had a dagger, you are still at -4, a great sword is much harder at -8.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 5/31/2015 7:50 pm

The_Great_Lestrade wrote:
i'm unsure of the rules, but i'd half movement under water and generally give any under water creatures initiative in any situation that requires it.

Seems like a reasonable suggestion. Thanks my friend.

**Posted by DMPrata** 6/02/2015 7:01 pm

Yes, the weapon penalties were meant to be cumulative with the –4 for surface dwellers. That means a fish-man with a mace would be –8 "to hit", whereas a man would be –12. Over time, the man could mitigate the additional –4 penalty, eventually improving to –8. It looks like we didn't specify movement rates for swimming or underwater combat. (Jeff, note for second printing!) I'm hardly the final word on the subject, but I'd suggest a –20 MV penalty for movement in the water. As noted in VOL. III, WATERBORNE EXPEDITIONS, man overboard (swimming), swimming is impossible in (non-magical) heavy armour and quite difficult in medium armour.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 6/02/2015 7:10 pm

Very helpful, thanks David!

**Posted by Blackadder23** 6/02/2015 7:45 pm

I think the cumulative penalties are entirely appropriate. Realistically, slashing or chopping weapons would be all but useless underwater. Allowing them to be used, but at a hefty penalty, is a reasonable concession to heroic fantasy IMO.

**Posted by Blackadder23** 6/02/2015 7:46 pm

Also I think a man in heavy armor should have an increased movement rate in the water - straight down!

Last edited by Blackadder23 (6/02/2015 7:48 pm)

**Posted by Chainsaw** 6/02/2015 7:56 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
I think the cumulative penalties are entirely appropriate. Realistically, slashing or chopping weapons would be all but useless underwater. Allowing them to be used, but at a hefty penalty, is a reasonable concession to heroic fantasy IMO.

I don't necessarily disagree; just wanted to make sure I interpreted the rules-as-written correctly.

Blackadder23 wrote:
Also I think a man in heavy armor should have an increased movement rate in the water - straight down!

Haha! Yes, I agree. I probably wasn't clear enough in my original post, but I was thinking more about an armored person who has waterbreathing and is forced to walk along on the body of water's floor.

**Posted by Ghul** 6/02/2015 9:17 pm

Yes, as David says, cumulative. But I could see how one might read it as one or the other, so thanks for pointing it out. And like BA23 poits out, they are completely appropriate. I'm inclined to also agree with Dave's solution of –20 MV for underwater movment.