HYPERBOREA / OGL 1.1 and Hyperborea

**Posted by Ghul** 1/12/2023 8:12 am

Friends,

I know a lot of folks are wondering about my response to the OGL 1.1 that has leaked from WotC/Hasbro. I appreciate the genuine concern for the future of the Hyperborea RPG, and by extension, my small-press company, North Wind Adventures. I want to assure everyone that I am taking everything in, speaking with peers, family, and attorneys, and I am formulating an official response. I appreciate and applaud all the publishers, creators, and RPG enthusiasts who have responded thus far. As gamers, we may argue about stuff like descending AC vs. ascending AC, but when push comes to shove, I think we can all agree that AC should not be eliminated from our common vernacular by corrupt, greedy, ignorant, and arrogant forces who see our hobby as nothing more than a property to be further monetized. I want to thank everyone who has reached out to me. Please give me more time to assess and respond accordingly, but know this: I will not let anyone take the Hyperborea RPG away from me. I will not sign away my creation that began development in 2008 and has gained more enthusiasts in each subsequent year. What began as a game that I wanted to run for my beer-drinking buddies has evolved into my full-time job and ultimate life's work creation. I have no intention to give that up. Thank you.

Jeffrey Talanian
North Wind Adventures

**Posted by rhialto** 1/12/2023 8:36 am

Jeff,

Thanks for the statement, and I look forward to continuing to support your creative efforts. As for WotC, well...some words of opprobrium from Mr. Vance.

"So then: these were Srenki, men whose virtue was the excess of vice, who with leaden zest performed quintessential evil and so redeemed their fellows from turpitude."
Jack Vance, The Domains of Koryphon

"This is preposterous! Must we welcome each scoundrel of time into our midst, to satiate himself on our good things, meanwhile perverting our customs?"
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellou

**Posted by The_Great_Lestrade** 1/12/2023 9:56 am

Fight on!

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/12/2023 10:03 am

Ghul,

I look forward to supporting your future efforts.

Cory Doctorow wrote about this recently:

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/12/beg-forgiveness-ask-permission/

In that is a link to an article on EFF that does a good job, I think, of going over the old OGL and what we know so far of OGL 1.1.

I agree with the idea to never use the OGL again and possibly use one of the Creative Commons licenses.

I think almost all of Hyperborea is free of infringement. As Cory and EFF write, you can't copyright game mechanics.

Regardless, you are doing the right thing by talking to folks *and* lawyers to see what is possible for you to do going forward.

**Posted by BlackKnight** 1/12/2023 10:38 am

Armor Rating...
Armor Rating is a Positive number based on the type of armor, and it reduces a character's rating number by the Armor's rating. EX padded armor has a rating of 1, it reduces a character's rating by 1 from 9 to 8...
Ex 2 Plate armor has a rating of 6, and wearing it would reduce a character's rating from 9 to 3, adding a shield with a rating of 2 would reduce it a further 2 points to a rating of 1...

Pretty easy to build a system around the numbers that doesn't use their "Words".

**Posted by The_Great_Lestrade** 1/12/2023 10:56 am

There’s a fairly clear video from Matt Finch on this. Individual words are not a major issue in his view but things like spell lists are. I’ve not compared strings of text in Hyperborea with wotc owned games so can’t tell what the problems would be if any. The bigger issues are likely to be A how many copes of 3rd Ed are on pallets and B can the ogl license page be cut out if needed.

**Posted by francisca** 1/12/2023 11:21 am

You got this, Jeff!

**Posted by rhialto** 1/12/2023 11:34 am

Given the erudite and eloquent text which is Hyperborea, I can only assume the WotC troglodytes will fail their SV vs. Sorcery...

**Posted by grodog** 1/12/2023 1:47 pm

rhialto wrote:
Given the erudite and eloquent text which is Hyperborea, I can only assume the WotC troglodytes will fail their SV vs. Sorcery...

WotC’s inability to understand their own licenses is not without precedent….

Allan.

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/12/2023 4:37 pm

I get so sick of parasites, who have never created anything of worth themselves, profiting off the genius of people who lived (in some cases) generations before. Who the hell is anyone in the Disney corporation to own characters created by other people decades ago? Who the hell is anyone at Hasbro or WotC to own a game created by Gary and others decades ago? This stuff should go into the public domain within a reasonable timeframe (maybe 20 years, if that long) after the death of the actual creator. It shouldn't remain a perpetual paycheck for a lot of freeloading parasites who add nothing of value to the world. James Joyce's worthless grandson, who brought lawsuits against scholars quoting his grandfather's work until he finally kicked the bucket himself, is one of the most infamous and galling cases, but this is a close second. Hasbro has no moral right to D&D, any more than Joyce the Lesser had a moral right to Ulysses. Genius belongs to the whole world.

**Posted by Caveman** 1/13/2023 6:14 am

Sari is an old Germanic word meaning Sad!

And that is what this stuff makes me. Some foolish account doing his job trying to make more profits for their company but with no ethical code beyond their numbers, and they created a paper that has cause disruption through the RPG world.

WotC should have instantly renounce/retracted this 1.1 OGL and allow people to stay calm and communicate that they would not violate the ethics of what the original OGL represented, and that was to allow those game-designers to use their material for game generation and make it compatible with their systems. This actually would grant them profits as people would also buy WotC products also.

M!M! (Which was T&T) are being ask by some of these game-creator to be allowed to use their M!M! system in future for their game creations, and I sure this will be happening for a lot of game-designers.

https://trollbridge.proboards.com/post/65177/thread

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/13/2023 1:41 pm

WotC blinked and they might have the smallest inkling of have badly they just damaged themselves and probably the amazing boost they gave to Paizo and the other indie publishers.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl

However, I really like this take on it:

https://xeno.glyphpress.com/@gamefiend/109682902092494656

Finally a response from WotC!

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl

Here is my interpretration:

<gets caught with hand in cookie jar>

"Oh, hi!

I know what this looks like....it's just that I know you love cookies and I was experimenting on other ways that we could distribute them to make you even happier with your cookie eating experience. I wanted to make sure none of those other greedy people would steal your cookies."

<palms a cookie>

Quinn is PF freelancer so he's justifiable angry at WotC and glad that Paizo stepped up and created ORC

**Posted by BlackKnight** 1/13/2023 2:24 pm

The Hasbot/WotC Juggernaught has just tucked tail and Run!!!

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/13/2023 3:46 pm

They did say whatever nonsense they're cooking up will still apply to tabletop games, so it's not a clean win yet. However, it sounds like they're scrapping the demands for royalties and letting them steal everyone's work, and I guess those were the most obnoxious aspects of the proposed new OGL.

**Posted by Antalon** 1/13/2023 3:48 pm

BlackKnight wrote:
The Hasbot/WotC Juggernaught has just tucked tail and Run!!!

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl

Their true colours are revealed however. Making your business dependent on a corporately owned entity, that holds a dominant position, is not wise.

I fully support Jeff and Hyperborea, and whatever his decision for the future of this superb game… but just don’t rely on the magnanimous spirit of Hasbro.

Last edited by Antalon (1/13/2023 3:49 pm)

**Posted by measuredrums** 1/13/2023 5:03 pm

I wonder if Jeff dropping the OGL 1.0a for the soon to be released Paizo authored Open RPG Content (ORC) license is a viable option for him/NorthWind? ... Many heavy hitters have already expressed solidarity with Paizo on it (Kobold Press, Troll Lord, and even Chaosium, to name a few), Goodman Games announced today that they too are hopeful to sign onto it (pending the final language).

Last edited by measuredrums (1/13/2023 5:05 pm)

**Posted by Caveman** 1/14/2023 7:50 am

What it will not contain is any royalty structure. It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds. Under any new OGL, you will own the content you create. We won’t. Any language we put down will be crystal clear and unequivocal on that point. The license back language was intended to protect us and our partners from creators who incorrectly allege that we steal their work simply because of coincidental similarities. As we continue to invest in the game that we love and move forward with partnerships in film, television, and digital games, that risk is simply too great to ignore. The new OGL will contain provisions to address that risk, but we will do it without a license back and without suggesting we have rights to the content you create.=16px Your ideas and imagination are what makes this game special, and that belongs to you.

** Well, they have tried to make amends and personally I know that when some folks talk the wrong meanings of what they are trying to say can sometimes spluttering forthwith.

** But I think they reacted too slowly, they have done a lot of damage to themselves not retracting the content of this new 1.1 (leaked) document and made a lot people anxious for their own futures. Some may now regard WotC as making an effort to amend, but how can they relay on them in the future?

** Theory people take things like this casually, but it is peoples' lives and with a bit of James Bond intrigue, they were caught (but should have hidden the document in the deepest vault so it not found).

First, we wanted the ability to prevent the use of D&D content from being included in hateful and discriminatory products.

** I can appreciate the need to keep their connect to inappropriate stuff and at a great distance, so perhaps their barriers insulted those who would not dream of doing such a thing. It like the store detective treating every customer like a thief? It not appropriate and bad mannered, but then again we expect them to have some sixth sense to know who is a thief and who is now. The list is endless.

OGL is for the content creator, the homebrewer, the aspiring designer, our players, and the community— not major corporations to use for their own commercial and promotional purpose.

** I can sympathies with their want to protect themselves also... But again they should have been very careful of how it was presented...

So, is this tsunami past or is it still pushing inland?

Last edited by Caveman (1/14/2023 7:51 am)

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/14/2023 4:22 pm

They only thing that matters is the document they publish.

Everything else is meaningless and pointless.

**Posted by Caveman** 1/15/2023 7:38 am

Exactly.

**Posted by Vetus Miles** 1/15/2023 9:25 am

“ First, we wanted the ability to prevent the use of D&D content from being included in hateful and discriminatory products.”

When I read this, first thing to come to mind was orcs and drow elves. WokeC doesn’t want people to categorize those fantasy races as inherently evil beings or cultures. Completely ignoring the canon lore origins.

My eyes rolled completely up inside my head and to the back.

Last edited by Vetus Miles (1/15/2023 9:26 am)