HYPERBOREA / Consequence of grappling

**Posted by Yora** 6/02/2014 12:58 pm

What exactly happens when you grapple an opponent?

If the defender fails his avoidance save, he can only attack his attacker wirh WC 1 to 3 weapons. The attacker can deal 1d2-1 damage per round, if the avoidance save failed by 5 or more.

So it seems that by successfully grappling an enemy, you keep him from moving and attacking other people or casting spells. Which is nice, but since he can still stab you and you deal minimal damage, if any at all, he will eventually kill you.

However, you can also overbear the enemy at basically the same chance and in that case you get all the benefits plus not getting stabbed.

Why would you ever chose to grapple instead of overbear?

**Posted by Blackadder23** 6/02/2014 3:43 pm

To be honest, it's almost impossible to get disarmed in Old School games unless an ooze dissolves your weapon or the DM decides to break out the sleep gas. So I never see anybody use unarmed combat rules anyway.

I suppose grappling might have some special uses if the DM allows - maybe taking an object away from somebody? As I said, it never really seems to happen in practice.

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 6/03/2014 7:42 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
To be honest, it's almost impossible to get disarmed in Old School games unless an ooze dissolves your weapon or the DM decides to break out the sleep gas. So I never see anybody use unarmed combat rules anyway.

I suppose grappling might have some special uses if the DM allows - maybe taking an object away from somebody? As I said, it never really seems to happen in practice.

How do *you* punch a rust monster to death?

**Posted by Yora** 6/05/2014 3:26 am

I looked it up in AD&D, and there Overbearing does not let you pin an opponent. Once you have him down on the floor, you can grapple him to pin him that way. So I'll just go with overbearing simply putting the enemy down on his ass and being prone.

Unarmed combat is not just for when you don't have a weapon. It's great when you want to instantly disable a spellcaster, or when there is a nearby drop that does a lot more damage than your punny weapon does on a hit. It's also a good choice when you want to take a prisoner but don't have him in a spot where you can corner him and force him to surrender.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 2/19/2015 10:45 am

In reviewing these and other rules in advance of Gary Con (because people always seem to pull crazy stunts in convention one-shots), I have some thoughts and questions. Any insights are welcome!

1. If you grapple successfully, but the target's failed save is not by five or more, what's the situation? You are tangled up, subject to damage from certain weapon classes, but unable to do damage? I suppose you have at least "held" the enemy, preventing him from attacking others? If preventing him from attacking others was irrelevant, what's the situation then? Disengage and attempt a better grapple? Assuming you want to continue grappling, I guess that's the only option, otherwise you're stuck taking damage, but not giving any, right? This seems to make sense and imitate wrestlers, locking up, splitting and re-locking. Obviously this combat maneuver's not always meaningful, especially against dungeon monsters, but I could see it happening in a barfight or something.

2. If you overbear successfully, that means what? That you have toppled and pinned the target, such that he is unable to move/attack? Or is the overbear one roll and the pin a separate roll? If it's a separate roll, what is it?

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 2/19/2015 12:51 pm

1. Right, if the save is not failed bad enough, you're just wrasslin', not using a super-secret choke hold of doom. The grapplee can then only attempt to break free or use WC 1-3 weapons. The upshot is taking someone out of a fight for whatever reason--maybe preventing a charmed or confused party member from actling like a fool.

2. If you hit with the overbear and your opponent fails his/her save, you have tackled and pinned, All the overborne can do is try to escape (or hope for a flag for unnecessary roughness).

**Posted by Chainsaw** 2/21/2015 12:28 pm

OK, cool - thanks for that confirmation, Handy. I'll have to review the rules for breaking free.

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 2/22/2015 4:26 am

What about a good ol' 'push them off the cliff' kind of action? Is grappling or charging better for that?

**Posted by Chainsaw** 2/22/2015 8:48 am

Rastus_Burne wrote:
What about a good ol' 'push them off the cliff' kind of action? Is grappling or charging better for that?

Well, depending on the relative starting positions of the two combatants, I think Push might be the right move. Bottom of page 216 of the Players' Manual.

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 2/22/2015 4:04 pm

Chainsaw wrote:
Rastus_Burne wrote:
What about a good ol' 'push them off the cliff' kind of action? Is grappling or charging better for that?
Well, depending on the relative starting positions of the two combatants, I think Push might be the right move. Bottom of page 216 of the Players' Manual.

If there was a facepalm emoticon I would have used it! Thanks for that, I do remember reading about that move, but slipped my mind completely.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 2/22/2015 4:08 pm

Rastus_Burne wrote:
Chainsaw wrote:
Rastus_Burne wrote:
What about a good ol' 'push them off the cliff' kind of action? Is grappling or charging better for that?
Well, depending on the relative starting positions of the two combatants, I think Push might be the right move. Bottom of page 216 of the Players' Manual.
If there was a facepalm emoticon I would have used it! Thanks for that, I do remember reading about that move, but slipped my mind completely.

No worries! I'm usually not the guy answering rules questions, so thanks for the rare opportunity, heh!

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 2/22/2015 4:09 pm

My pleasure!

**Posted by Ghul** 2/23/2015 9:58 am

Rastus_Burne wrote:
My pleasure!

It's funny that it came up this way, Chain and RB, because when I was developing the game, I was studying the non-weapon combat procedures from the inspirational systems, and it occurred to me that none of the non-weapon combat methods presented accounted for a simple, school yard push in the chest. Things got rolling from there, and it has proved useful in my own games ever since.

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 2/23/2015 3:17 pm

Speaking from experience where my character or someone else's has pushed someone to their death from an elevation, I think it's a very useful rule!

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 2/23/2015 5:54 pm

Ghul wrote:
Rastus_Burne wrote:
My pleasure!
It's funny that it came up this way, Chain and RB, because when I was developing the game, I was studying the non-weapon combat procedures from the inspirational systems, and it occurred to me that none of the non-weapon combat methods presented accounted for a simple, school yard push in the chest. Things got rolling from there, and it has proved useful in my own games ever since.

A lot of my games actually take place in schoolyards! Very dangerous.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/17/2017 3:33 pm

I got a chance to use Unarmed Combat during my last session.

Basically a prostitute was asking for help with a bouncer at a brothel because she's a streetwalker (I basically decided she was working at a brothel that didn't care if you were pimped up or not, the House just wanted its cut. This bouncer was trying force her into getting a pimp. She didn't want to because she didn't want to give a pimp a cut on top of the House's cut). One of the party decided to help.

He went to the brothel and hit up the bouncer for a job. The bouncer said "Sure but first lets see how good you are. No armor or weapons and we'll just brawl."

I randomly chose the bouncer to Overbear. He got initiative and succeeded. The PC, Vandall a 3rd level fighter, made his strength test and broke free from the overbearing. The next round Vandall sucessfully Grappled the bouncer who badly saved his save and was getting choked out.

I guess I didn't read the rules closely enough because I had the bouncer try to break free from the choke hold.

When the bouncer finally freed himself (after taking a bit of damage, which I counted as non-lethal so going to 0 would knock him out but not kill him or need much healing) Vandall Pummeled him hard enough (rolled like an 18 or something) to stun the bouncer. Vandall proceeded to beat the crap of the bouncer (I just ruled that Vandall needed to avoid rolling a 1 each round he was pounding the poor 0 FA bouncer).

I like the Unarmed rules so far. It was kinda fun to use them. Rather simple and easy to understand. Not sure what I would have had the bouncer do during the choke hold otherwise. Pummeling wouldn't have really helped against a 3rd level fighter. I think breaking free was his only realistic option.

**Posted by Ghul** 1/18/2017 3:59 pm

I'm glad it worked out well. Many times in my games, it's not that my players are saying "I want to use Unarmed Combat method x"; rather, they explain something they want to try, and I go to the most reasonably close Unarmed Combat option and take things from there.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/18/2017 7:23 pm

Ghul wrote:
I'm glad it worked out well. Many times in my games, it's not that my players are saying "I want to use Unarmed Combat method x"; rather, they explain something they want to try, and I go to the most reasonably close Unarmed Combat option and take things from there.

They have the pdf's so they just look it up :-)

Consequently the fighter happened to notice the "advanced combat" stuff so maybe combat will get more interesting as well.

**Posted by Ghul** 1/19/2017 9:38 am

Good stuff, gizmo!

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 1/19/2017 12:35 pm

Ghul wrote:
I'm glad it worked out well. Many times in my games, it's not that my players are saying "I want to use Unarmed Combat method x"; rather, they explain something they want to try, and I go to the most reasonably close Unarmed Combat option and take things from there.

Yes, this is how it usually works for me. But organizationally, I like having the info in an area the players can access in case they ever feel like it.