HYPERBOREA / What makes it a Third Edition?

**Posted by Ghul** 4/29/2021 12:45 pm

Greetings HYPERBOREA friends,

This list is intended to provide you with a decent idea on what is different about the Third Edition of HYPERBOREA. This list is not intended to be exhaustive; rather, it's a sort of highlights list of what is being changed. I plan to update this post as time allows. I won't for example, list things like a spell's range changed from 30 feet to 60 feet. This list is intended to show the more significant alterations; the Cliffs Notes version, if you would.

Physical Changes
- Two hardback set (same Smyth sewn binding, high quality paper)
- Possibly a slipcase as an add-on. It's being quoted for.
- Map reworked by Glynn Seal and to be presented in atlas format and special poster version.
- New layout, fonts, etc.
- Indexes in both books.

Branding
- Simplifying the branding and naming to HYPERBOREA, but "Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea" remains part of the scheme and is shown as a back cover subtitle.

People
- The game has been revised by the author.
- Editing by George Sedgwick.
- New cover art painted by Charles Lang (both books).
- Interior colour plates by Charles Lang, David Miller, Peter Mullen, and Val Semeiks (with Daisey Bingham)
- 26 new character illustrations by Diogo Nogueira.
- Chapter frame art by Del Teigeler.
- Gynn Seal has recoloured the map.
- More to be announced!

Content
- Cataphract new ability: shield sacrifice.
- Huntsman new ability: harvest venom.
- Paladin: Introduction of fell paladin, LE version of paladin. Also, cleric scroll reading ability at 7th level. High wisdom now grants bonus spells.
- Ranger now has scroll reading ability at 7th level. High wisdom now grants bonus druid spells cast per day, high intelligence grants bonus magician spells cast per day.
- Illusionist new ability: coloured globe.
- Witch brew decoction ability simplified and expanded. Also, certain detection spells can be cast through familiar.
- Monk has a decent overhaul to the entire class. It is the most changed class for 3E.
- Shaman new ability: harvest venom. Also, spells per day slightly improved.
- Assassin new ability: harvest venom.
- Bard spells per day slightly improved.
- Scout new abilities: disguise (like assassin) and run (like monk).
- 12 new playable character races (Anglo-Saxon, Carolingian Frank, Esquimaux-Ixian, Greek, Lapp, Lemurian, Moor, Mu, Oon, Roman, Tlingit, Yakut).
- Languages: More available languages available.
- Several new spells.
- Sorcerer types can learn a known spell from another caster type’s spell book, so long as it is on their list of learnable spells. For example, an illusionist can copy an invisibility spell from a magician’s spell book, but he can’t copy a magic missile spell, because that contains proprietary language. However, we separate thaumaturgical sorcery from ecclesiastical sorcery. So, a druid can copy a detect magic spell from a cleric’s prayer book, but he can’t do the same from a witch’s spell book.
- Characters need not memorize the regular spell or its reversed form; rather, they can decide at the last moment to invert the incantation and thus cast its reversible form. We have so many examples of spells in which the caster is deciding which version of the spell is being cast, and I realize resource management is part of the allure of a game like this, but I don’t see why a cleric can’t elect to use cause moderate wounds on a whim instead of cure moderate wounds, and so forth.
- Scroll-using characters can now invoke a scroll that is on their spell list, as long as it was not created by one who practices the opposite form of magic, which we are defining as thaumaturgic sorcery (magicians and subclasses) and ecclesiastic sorcery (clerics and druids), so a magician can indeed use a fireball scroll created by a pyromancer, and vice versa.
- Streamlined combat system (no more phases).
- New monsters.
- New magic items.
- And more!

All of the above shows you why it is a "3E" yet the game remains backwards compatible. I'll be revealing more in the coming weeks. Thanks for your interest!

- Jeffrey Talanian

**Posted by BlackKnight** 4/29/2021 1:08 pm

Nice!

**Posted by Ghul** 4/29/2021 1:09 pm

BlackKnight wrote:
Nice!

Thanks, Bob!

**Posted by drablak** 4/29/2021 2:36 pm

Thanks for the details! Interesting, quite interesting! 👍

**Posted by MrManowar** 4/29/2021 8:30 pm

Sounds excellent. I'm in to get these things. Looking forward to this!

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 4/29/2021 10:43 pm

Cool, looking forward to seeing the changes in their full glory

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 4/30/2021 4:56 am

Sounds great!

One thing I noticed from Castles & Crusades is that illusionist spells don’t dissipate when touched - they persist because the illusion is quasi-real. I can see that this makes illusionists a much more powerful (and attractive) class. It also makes them potent as NPC antagonists. I mention this because I recall that touching an illusion in AS&SH causes it to dispel. This may be too much of a change, but I wonder if something similar might be considered for the next edition of AS&SH, particularly for some of the higher level illusions. Just a thought...

**Posted by BlackKnight** 4/30/2021 8:07 am

Doctor_Rob wrote:
Sounds great!

One thing I noticed from Castles & Crusades is that illusionist spells don’t dissipate when touched - they persist because the illusion is quasi-real. I can see that this makes illusionists a much more powerful (and attractive) class. It also makes them potent as NPC antagonists. I mention this because I recall that touching an illusion in AS&SH causes it to dispel. This may be too much of a change, but I wonder if something similar might be considered for the next edition of AS&SH, particularly for some of the higher level illusions. Just a thought...

I always understood it as Belief makes the illusion real. If you fail saves, the illusion should be "real" to you...

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 4/30/2021 9:20 am

BlackKnight wrote:
I always understood it as Belief makes the illusion real. If you fail saves, the illusion should be "real" to you...

The issue relates to illusions being touched or hit. In AS&SH, I seem to recall that, if touched, the illusion is effectively dispelled (no save required).

Castles & Crusades has an interesting take on illusionists in that the sorcerer is able to create a quasi-reality - the term 'illusionist' being somewhat of a misnomer. In this sense, illusionists are the most powerful of sorcerers, being able to forge their own (quasi) reality. In game terms, this seems to me to be a good take on the illusionist, because it makes their craft both more attractive to a player (because their incantations cannot be readily dispelled by someone merely touching it) and as NPC antagonists (for the same reason). I imagine a successful save against an illusion spell represents the protagonist using force of will or some such to reimpose their own subjective realty on the way they perceive the world and hence break - in their mind - the quasi-reality of the 'illusion'. Or something like that, anyway...

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 4/30/2021 9:49 am

I would say that it would be a spell of a different kind that would allow the illusion to persist if touched.

Like an audible illusion vs a visual illusion. As you add elements/senses to it the spells becomes more challenging.

In this case a tactile effect is added.

Also, this is where the role playing of the illusionist can help and also taking into account the setting and context.

Much like a street magician will position themselves such that you can easily see where they've palmed an item, setting up "a scene" to maximize belief helps. Especially if there is a series of sets that gets you to think the fire is an illusion...until it isn't.

I wouldn't, as a general rule, say that all illusions aren't dispelled if touch. Just have a higher level spell that has tactile components that creates that illusion.

Like a first level spell that can fool 1 sense, second level 2 senses, etc. or have them at 1st, 3rd, 5th or something.

Just speculating without taking the time to pull out the spell lists

**Posted by Mortificateur** 4/30/2021 4:55 pm

I liked the phase in combat to be honest but I understand.

You should think about a VTT option for Hyperborea. Fantasy Grounds is great but there's others options. Especially with the pandemic. I haven't played AS&SH in more than a year because of that.

Things I Worked On · **Posted by Ynas Midgard** 5/03/2021 9:36 am

I am mostly curious about the changes to the monk (because one of my players loves the idea but wasn't that satisfied with the execution; still, he played a monk at least once in all our campaigns) and the combat system.

**Posted by Ghul** 5/03/2021 9:46 am

Mortificateur wrote:
I liked the phase in combat to be honest but I understand.

You should think about a VTT option for Hyperborea. Fantasy Grounds is great but there's others options. Especially with the pandemic. I haven't played AS&SH in more than a year because of that.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the resources to pour into such an endeavor; nor have I been fond of the contracts one must sign to be included in their service. This is a small, family-run business, so for now, my plan is to continue to put all my energy into the best possible tabletop products. If folks would like to utilize these in some way for virtual play, that's fine, but I can't stretch out to that sort of additional responsibility at this time. I do get the occasional request about it, and I realize it may be an opportunity that I'm failing to properly engage. Perhaps some day, but not any time soon.

**Posted by Ghul** 5/03/2021 9:49 am

Ynas Midgard wrote:
I am mostly curious about the changes to the monk (because one of my players loves the idea but wasn't that satisfied with the execution; still, he played a monk at least once in all our campaigns) and the combat system.

I will be happy to provide a sneak peek of it in the near future after Mr. Sedgwick finishes editing and we've had some time to go over the particulars. Thanks!

**Posted by Blackadder23** 5/04/2021 9:24 am

Doctor_Rob wrote:
Sounds great!

One thing I noticed from Castles & Crusades is that illusionist spells don’t dissipate when touched - they persist because the illusion is quasi-real. I can see that this makes illusionists a much more powerful (and attractive) class. It also makes them potent as NPC antagonists. I mention this because I recall that touching an illusion in AS&SH causes it to dispel. This may be too much of a change, but I wonder if something similar might be considered for the next edition of AS&SH, particularly for some of the higher level illusions. Just a thought...

In a sense, this already exists in the game. You have spells like spawn shadow monsters that create quasi-real monsters that don't disappear when touched, but must instead be destroyed through normal combat (albeit they have reduced AC and hit points). There are also the shadow sorcery spells, which create a damaging spell effect where belief is irrelevant.

**Posted by drablak** 5/04/2021 10:11 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
In a sense, this already exists in the game. You have spells like spawn shadow monsters that create quasi-real monsters that don't disappear when touched, but must instead be destroyed through normal combat (albeit they have reduced AC and hit points). There are also the shadow sorcery spells, which create a damaging spell effect where belief is irrelevant.

That's true but those are 4th level and 5th level spells. Even Advanced Spectral Phantasm, a 5th level spell, dispels if touched. I like playing illusionists but I think the illusionist in AS&SH is less attractive as it is than other sub-classes. It doesn't really have many exclusive spells, it doesn't get any additional weapons (not that it's a big thing in itself, but all the other subclasses do), and its spell list is much reduced and doesn't include heavy offensive spells (it's not the focus of this subclass but I'm pointing out what it gives up versus the magician), and of course no familiar. So it's giving up a lot, for the same experience progression, without gaining anything substantial (pun intended) IMO. For those reasons I agree with Doctor_Rob that illusions, at least those casted by the illusionist subclass, should not be dispelled just by touch. At the very least they should remain but the individual touching the illusion sees it for what it is (or better yet, gets a save).

Last edited by drablak (5/04/2021 10:12 am)

**Posted by Ghul** 5/04/2021 11:41 am

It's a decent suggestion. I'll talk about it with my editor and small team of advisors.

**Posted by drablak** 5/04/2021 7:55 pm

Ghul wrote:
It's a decent suggestion. I'll talk about it with my editor and small team of advisors.

Great! Thanks for taking it into consideration.

**Posted by PortlyFighter** 5/05/2021 3:09 pm

Any chance of the index or class updates being released as a pdf for those of us who like the one book format?

**Posted by tomas** 5/05/2021 3:18 pm

I like the change of sorcerer types being able to read shared spells; that was a house rule of mine as I found the way as written too prohibitive.

I'm very interested in the rewrite of the monk. Are you willing to give a preview of a change?