HYPERBOREA / Ascending AC

**Posted by Judge Khan** 8/14/2014 2:21 am

Well, this turned into quite a discussion. Thanks for the info, all.

**Posted by Maezar** 8/16/2014 2:41 pm

I don't get many emails about the character sheet, but of the ones that have come, a small majority included the request for a toggle switch somewhere to enable 3E style positive AC.

I don't think I'll ever do this though.

**Posted by Yora** 8/16/2014 4:34 pm

Judge Khan wrote:
Well, this turned into quite a discussion. Thanks for the info, all.

Because it's a big issue!

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 8/19/2014 8:04 am

Maezar wrote:
I don't get many emails about the character sheet, but of the ones that have come, a small majority included the request for a toggle switch somewhere to enable 3E style positive AC.

I don't think I'll ever do this though.

Good! Like the statehood of Missouri, I'll be in the cold, cold ground before I acknowledge the validity of ascending AC!

**Posted by The_Great_Lestrade** 8/23/2014 7:15 pm

if ascending is demanded is just do a straight subtraction and add the FA to the die roll. Generally i don't bother though.

**Posted by Maezar** 8/26/2014 7:12 pm

Well, on second thought, I don't want to alienate. The purpose of the sheet is to broaden the game's audience. And who cares what people do in the privacy of their own games? I can probably add this option. Did we decide what the math looks like?

**Posted by francisca** 8/28/2014 9:30 am

Maezar, are you going to do two different sheets, or frobble the current sheet so it shows both numbers.

**Posted by chrisj** 8/28/2014 2:33 pm

Maezar: Subtract descending AC from 20 to get ascending AC.

Last edited by chrisj (8/28/2014 2:34 pm)

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 1/19/2015 4:20 am

Judge Khan wrote:
My group wants to houserule to Ascending AC but I'm confused about how to convert it. If unarmoured AC is 9 Descending, is it 10 or 11 Ascending?

As Yora mentioned in his first post, if you're modelling it off earlier editions of D&D AC9 descending would be equivalent to AC11 ascending. You could always start with a base of 10, which might actually be easier.

**Posted by SmokestackJones** 1/22/2017 11:28 am

My two coppers,

I've recently threw off my rose-colored glasses and made my peace with Ascending AC, as it IS faster. BUT, I still complain about it out of laziness. All this 30+ years of classic modules and I have to go through them and convert the AC on all the NPCs and critters? Too much work.

-SJ

**Posted by tomas** 1/22/2017 8:35 pm

Maezar wrote:
Did we decide what the math looks like?

My understanding is that the equivalent descending and ascending AC adds up to 19. So a descending AC 7 would be equivalent to an ascending AC of 12.

**Posted by lige** 1/22/2017 9:04 pm

You can get the same effect by what Delta of Deltas D&D Hotspot calls Target 20. Basically the player rolls a D20 adds their level and any modifiers to the result and the DM adds the AC of the target and if the result is 20 or higher its a hit. The hard part with AD&D is that the level thing only works with fighters and you have to factor other classes levels. With Hyperborea the math has already been done with the FA number so its even easier. So all adding and you can use classic AC values.

**Posted by mabon5127** 1/23/2017 8:07 am

lige wrote:
You can get the same effect by what Delta of Deltas D&D Hotspot calls Target 20. Basically the player rolls a D20 adds their level and any modifiers to the result and the DM adds the AC of the target and if the result is 20 or higher its a hit. The hard part with AD&D is that the level thing only works with fighters and you have to factor other classes levels. With Hyperborea the math has already been done with the FA number so its even easier. So all adding and you can use classic AC values.

I use the ascending and or this method as it speeds up looking at a chart. Lige, are you going to run at GenCon this year?

**Posted by lige** 1/23/2017 9:20 am

mabon5127 wrote:
I use the ascending and or this method as it speeds up looking at a chart. Lige, are you going to run at GenCon this year?

I just read about it so I haven't had a chance to try it out yet - hopefully this week! I might be going to GenCon but I'm not sure about my summer plans yet - if so I would definitely plan to run some games.

**Posted by mabon5127** 1/23/2017 10:41 am

lige wrote:
mabon5127 wrote:
I use the ascending and or this method as it speeds up looking at a chart. Lige, are you going to run at GenCon this year?

I just read about it so I haven't had a chance to try it out yet - hopefully this week! I might be going to GenCon but I'm not sure about my summer plans yet - if so I would definitely plan to run some games.

Cool, thanks.

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 1/23/2017 12:06 pm

I still subtract ascending ACs from 20 or 21 (unarmored in LotFP is 12) to find the equivalent. I also really like are OSR and system-neutral products that give AC as "As leather" or "As chain" or "As plate" and let you do it from there.

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 2/02/2017 2:45 pm

Wow, what a thread this turned out to be....

Like many here have already said, old hands are used to the descending AC. I confess to liking the original THAC0 innovation because it made life a whole lot easier and gameplay faster. But, when applied to better armour classes in AD&D one runs into problems. For example, the range for a 3rd level fighter attacking AC1 to AC-4 is 17 18 19 20 20 20, so THAC0 breaks down for these better ACs (here, -3 and -4). Whilst players could list these on their character sheets, the DM still has to check his tables. This is one area where modern retroclones have made a big improvement to gameplay IMO.

Things I Worked On · **Posted by Ynas Midgard** 2/03/2017 4:46 am

I've always used Target20 since I was introduced to descending AC. I don't like charts. Well, actually I do, but if there's a formula to it, why use a chart? In AS&SH, it works out like this:
d20 + FA + to-hit modifiers + AC >= 20; the maths is exactly the same as in the tables.

**Posted by Chainsaw** 2/03/2017 8:55 am

When I run games, I tell people to tell me what AC they hit. Usually they roll d20, adjust for bonuses/penalties, then refer to the scale on their character sheet (if they prefer to do the math instead, I'm indifferent) and tell me "I hit AC 2" or whatever. I tell them whether that's a hit or not. Usually after a round or two, everyone zeros in on the antagonist's AC, which is fine, but at first there's still mystery around "How tough is this thing?"

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 2/03/2017 4:15 pm

Chainsaw wrote:
When I run games, I tell people to tell me what AC they hit. Usually they roll d20, adjust for bonuses/penalties, then refer to the scale on their character sheet (if they prefer to do the math instead, I'm indifferent) and tell me "I hit AC 2" or whatever. I tell them whether that's a hit or not. Usually after a round or two, everyone zeros in on the antagonist's AC, which is fine, but at first there's still mystery around "How tough is this thing?"

Yeah, me, too, Chainsaw.