Ghul wrote:

Blackadder23 wrote:

Handy Haversack wrote:

Man, insurance rates for horses in Hyperborea must be insane.

"Your horse exploded like it swallowed a keg of alchemist's powder" is actually a phrase I've used more than once in my campaign.
 

Ha! Classic.
 

Yet cataphract is such a cool class *in theory*. Somewhere, somewhere there's world where the horses never explode and all the sacred chaos manacles come with a safe word.

Yora wrote:

this is something I find very hard to grasp. How can I set up interesting situations without a general idea what the players are going to do. Having a complete murder mystery with witnesses, clues, and a conspiracy, is way too much work if the players may decide they don't want get involved with this or wonder why it would concern them.

Some types of adventures are just not well-suited to freeform play in my opinion, and mysteries are one example.  I've rarely ever seen a good published example of that type of adventure, and I don't think that's a coincidence.  You almost have to railroad to keep a mystery going, because the players are pretty much guaranteed to miss clues or lose interest.  It's better, at least in my opinion, to play to the strengths of the form rather than try to go 180 degrees against them; in other words, to create the kind of adventures that are well-suited to freeform play.  As far as elaborate conspiracies go, in my opinion you're drifting into Mary Sue territory when unseen NPC's are driving most of the action.  PC's should drive 90% of the action in my view, especially when attempting to emulate the sword and sorcery genre.

To put it another way, you set up interesting situations just like you normally would.  The key is not to dictate to the players exactly what they should do in those situations.  Let them figure something out.

Yora wrote:

But still I am not sure what things might require three or four 1st level characters, that a dozen farmers with torches and pitchforks couldn't do better themselves?

Send them someplace superstitious farmers are afraid to go - ruined temple, haunted cave, abandoned catacombs.  In short, a dungeon.

In my low-level, all-thief campaign, there is a new Thieves' Guild in town, and it is challenging the old one. The master of the guild wanted a gem stolen, but it was owned by a somewhat important person, so he brought in the young PCs to do the job. Why? If they stole the gem and brought it to him, he would pay them and let them into his organization. If they failed and got caught, he had no ties to them.

And don't forget the Random Sword & Sorcery Adventure Generator from one of our very own!

I think right now my players have the rumor of the doom that's going to come to the new Lady of the Black Fief in seven months; a map marked with "Death Yeast" (which would be the megadungeon published serially in Wizards Mutants Laser Pistols) and another death symbol (the tomb in Terror in the Gloaming); a job offer from the sheriff of one town in the Gal Hills to go check out what's going on with the Constable in another town in the Gal Hills because he thinks he's still a bandit and might be sending daemon Picts toward his neighbors (also partly Terror in the Gloaming); and a command from a little daemon (that's in the service of the necromancer who's secret apprentice they killed on their first day on the job) to "find the Moonblade of holy Laoise," which also ties in to some stuff in Terror in the Gloaming! Plus, they have Hyperborea if they want to head off somewhere else! So right now they're on their way to Terror in the Gloaming, which works out since I've read it. They figured with several things (including a daemon) pointing them that way, it might be easiest just to go along and find out what's happening.

But so I mostly just added more possibilities as they did stuff and then let them figure out what they might want to do. Their actions have repercussions. There aren't *that* many adventuring parties stirring things up in the Gal Hills, so people are going to take notice, esp. as they keep getting into shouting matches with the gate guards of every town ...

So I guess I just found some stuff that I liked or thought could be interesting to play through, scattered it around, and then sat back and waited to see what happened. There's some pressure on them to head in some specific directions (daemon!), but if they didn't feel like it, they wouldn't. The point, though, is that players want to play--that's why they're at the table! They *want* to go find adventure and combat and treasure. One doesn't have to dress it up too much to catch their interest because they're already interested.

Also, players only love you when you're playing.

Please forgive me as well, as I don't want to sound hostile either, but have you been a game referee before or are you just learning?  Maybe your mentioned that above at some point but I don't recall.  The reason I ask is that your questions seem rather fundamental to running a role playing game in general.  If that is the case, then no worries.  I'm sure we can help you through some beginner stuff.  Would it be helpful if we gave you a sample scenario or something to help you get the creative juices flowing?

Players are great at realizing they're in over their heads:

"This ain't no first-level dungeon!"

"I never said it was! You wanted Death Yeast, this is where Death Yeast is!"

"Fine. Remember our names, [monsters]! We are [name of other adventuring party], and we'll be back!"

That said, being made a fair offer to clean out a rat-plagued inn where a solo adventurer has already failed seems like a pretty good job for a first-level crew.

Druvas wrote:

Please forgive me as well, as I don't want to sound hostile either, but have you been a game referee before or are you just learning? Maybe your mentioned that above at some point but I don't recall. The reason I ask is that your questions seem rather fundamental to running a role playing game in general. If that is the case, then no worries. I'm sure we can help you through some beginner stuff. Would it be helpful if we gave you a sample scenario or something to help you get the creative juices flowing?

I think I've probably ran 40 or so sessions over the last 15 years. But the vast majority of them didn't appear to me as having been much good. I am usually not at all shy about boasting my skills and can't stand people who are constantly moaning about how terrible their work is, but in this case I feel like I could be doing a lot more better. Just doing something poorly a lot of times doesn't automatically make you better unless you understand what actually went wrong.
I read a lot over the last half year that had great insight on how to spot pitfalls and avoid poor form, and I think in the last three games this year, I actually did do a much better than I felt before.
Ideas in what direction the campaign will be heading, with major antagonists and local events, I do have a good number, and I don't think that will become any kind of problem in the long run.

In a way, much of my current problem results from the limited durability of the party. In addition to the characters being 1st level, almost all of the players are complete beginners who know almost nothing about the game and what to expect of the people and creatures they can encounter in the world. Which in turn is part of the reason I want to play on 1st level for now, because at this stage the characters, spells, and items are simple, and the enemies they can fight are relatively plain without a lot of strange abilities. Starting at 4th level would mean the characters are much more durable, but the players would probably be quite overwhelmed with all the completely new things dropped on them at once.
Having a group of 1st level characters trying to deal with a monster in the sewers, which turns out to be a shoggoth could really be an awesome adventure. But that would be only with experienced players who have a general idea what a shoggoth is. If I would put one anywhere near my current group, they might want to try to give it one probing poke to see what it is, and immediately everyone is dead.

Now, one potential way to deal with it, would be to just accept it as it is, and let PCs die like flies for the first couple of sessions. Once the players have figured things out and have a better idea what to expect, characters will survive longer until the players get to a point where they can start to get attached to their characters and try to keep them for the rest of the campaign. I can see how that might work well for many groups, but my personal experience is that campaigns with a group rarely last longer than 6 to 8 games. In no way their fault, but I've got tied of always running introductory games for one group after another. As a GM, I do want to get to the meaty parts and actually get the opportunity to get a decent developing narrative going, with established villains, factions, and so on. And I think it's partly because the adventures at 1st level tend to be rather random with no clear perception of progress, that interest lasts only for 4 games or so and then the campaign sputters out. The longest campaign in which I was a player went for probably 12 sessions or so, during which the GM frequently assured us, that everything would eventually lead up to something, but it never did. And even as a player, I found it very disappointing. We did all these things, but it seemed all rather inconsequential. And after a disastrous attempt at the Tomb of Horror, we decided to start a new campaign, at which point I chose not to join in again.

The game I have in mind would be "nonlinear, open-ended narrative". I am not going to tell the players who will be the villain of the campaign, what battles they have to fight, who they will side with, and what the final battle will be. But there will be a central conflict around which the campaign will revolve with certain things happening in certain places. The players can chose who they will side with and what final outcome they try to make happen. That will be their choice. (A group of well meaning chaos priests and a snakeman sorcerer search for an ancient artifact, and the knowledge how to use it is held by a trapped and hybernating aboleth. If possible, the aboleth will try to escape and claim the artifact himself, but in the end all three factions will be incapable of containing and controling its horrific powers. The players will decide themselves which side, if any, they want to support, and who they consider the greatest threat that needs to be fought.)
However, I don't think I can just burry them with a large info dump on the land where all takes place, what the involved faction are and what the background information on the artifact is and then let them pick their side. There needs to be an introductory phase in which the characters encounter the groups each at a time, and can form a basic picture for themselves. For example, there will be one of the snakeman sorcerers spies who has been active in the area for decades and would be their main contact for that faction if the players chose to side with them. Or otherwise, she will be a recurring antagonist. To be able to make a meaningful choice to follow her or not, the players first have to get to know her. And one way this could happen, is if she were to hire them for some small job. Not because she wants to test them, but to give her a reason to offer them a permanent partnership later in the campaign. She would have to know them and trust them to some extend, and I think it would be much more effective this way than just ominously saying "I've been watching you for a long time and am authorized to offer a position in our organization to you fine gentlemen."
And that gets me right back to the original problem. What would be good tasks for 1st level characters, so that the players can get the hang of the game and the characters establish a reputation for themselves?

Yora, I appreciate your candor.  40 session over the last 15 years isn't very frequent for sure.  I'll have to spend some time reading over the Spriggan's Den, but it sounds like you are really trying to make this a good experience for your players and want to build a lasting campaign.  Awesome, and a great aspiration.

I suspect most here (though I could be wrong) are of the 'churn through characters until one survives' bent.  I tend to be as well, but that makes for a tough beginning and if the players are likely to tire quickly of frequent deaths, then I see no problem in giving them a (very small) leg up, such as max hit points at 1st level or some such to give them a better fighting chance,  I say feel free to experiment with those sorts of things.  It sounds like your players are unfamiliar with "old school rpgs" as well as this particular genre.  As for the shoggoth and things like it, how did you learn what it was and to fear it?  Presumably you read about it.  In the past, I have given my players 'homework' assignments.  Let them know that Hyperborea is pretty genre specific.  There's a CAS website that has a bunch of his writings on it.  Jeff T posted the link in one of the other threads on this site.  I'll see what it is and post it again here.  Have your players read a couple of stories to get familiar.  I'm sure there's something similar for Lovecraft stories as well.  It's all short story stuff and will really build in their minds some of the horror.

Your campaign idea sounds great.  In my experience, if you give players a nibble, they will run with it, especially if they have no idea what else to do.  If I get you right, the two factions are the chaos priests/snakeman sorcerer and the Aboleth.  Why not toss in another faction.  Everyone loves a 3-way ;-)

I would have tasks from all factions available for them to do.  Each faction's task should be suited to their ethos which will eventually help the players make their allegience choice(s).  Maybe initially, the tasks are 'neutral' to the goals of the faction?  Maybe they are testing the pcs out to see if they will work well with their faction?  Or maybe there is outright trickery by evil-leaning factions? 

Some ideas for simple, low-level tasks, unrelated to any of the factions :
-Local merchant has trouble with bandits raiding his caravans.  Being near bankruptcy, he is looking for cheap labor to solve his problem, as the local lord isn't interested in dealing with it.  Not much pay for the gig, but if they succeed in routing the bandits, he spreads their good name around.
-Rats in the basement ;-)
-Many graves appear to be emptying in the grave yard outside of town.  No one has seen any undead about, but surely that must be the reason...  Or not?  A low-level necromancer could be stealing them for experiments.  Maybe the local bruisers are being hired to dig them up at night.  Or maybe it's just a simple matter of grave robbing?

Anyway, hopefully, you get the idea.  Let me know if this helps or not.

Handy Haversack wrote:

To back up Druvas a bit (and I had to run to a meeting so didn't have time to add this before), using Jeff's Rats in the Walls would be a fine way to go. Move it to any town of your choice. You can have your faction's factotum want something specific that she has traced to the tower of the ancient Hyperborean magician. Maybe the Hyperborean NPC knows something about this. Maybe he's working for one of the other factions. At any rate, pick one of the items that's down there (daemon skeleton, ritual athame, manacles of Aurorus, prayer manual of Aurorus, rat daemon babies, whathaveyou) or add another and have the factotum offer a reward for getting it. She's testing the PCs and getting something valuable. The innkeeper, of course, would probably offer another reward if the PCs play it cool and don't simply announce why they're there--what's better than getting paid twice for the same job (everyone: "Not being a contractor!" [sorry, couldn't resist])? And after that, the survivors might even be close to second level!

How dare you let work get in the way. ;-)

Yora wrote:

I really don't want to sound hostile here, but this is really not the kind of comment that is helpful.

How would you set up situations normally? That's what I am asking. There are no established standards how these things are done and that everyone automatically knows because they are obvious. That's the kind of knowledge I am searching for.

No problem.  I appreciate that you took the time to clarify.

I think you have two separate issues: the creative aspect, and the mechanical aspect.  It's very hard to explain or teach creativity, but I doubt that's really necessary in this case.  You seem like an intelligent, educated person.  I'm sure that, if you sit down and ponder, you can brainstorm several ways to get your players involved in any given situation.  Whether it be for money, or because they owe someone a favor, or because they're forced into it.  If you really get stuck, there are lists and tables of adventure hooks online.  Just find one and pick or roll something.  If I may blow my own horn for a moment, my Random Sword & Sorcery Adventure Generator has a "Hook" table you can use to find a way of getting your players involved in an adventure.  For example, say I created a ruined temple for them to explore.  I'm going to roll a d20 on the "Hook" table right now (rattle, rattle): '6', which is "Dared or had courage questioned".  So someone will publicly accuse them (maybe in a tavern?) of being lily-livered cowards if they don't enter the temple and do something interesting (bring back the head of a broken statue? - yeah, that sounds cool).  Boom, I'm ready to go.  If you don't like what you roll, just roll again, or choose something.  If your players don't bite at the hook (although why wouldn't they - they want a game, don't they?), pull out a backup adventure with a different hook.  If they don't bite at that either... well, just have bandits raid the tavern where their lazy butts are sitting.  There are a million ways to get players involved in an adventure, so pick one and go!

(If I can offer one more piece of advice: don't apply too much "fridge logic" to your ideas.  By "fridge logic" I mean stuff like "Why aren't they hiring more powerful NPC's instead of the players?" or "Why are there monster-filled murder caverns five miles from town?"  It's a game, and a fantasy game at that.  Suspension of disbelief, within reason, is necessary to keep the game moving.  I'm fairly sure your players would rather enjoy the game than pick at the inconsistencies in your scenarios.  If not, you may need new players.  Some people you just can't reach.)

Your second issues seems to be mechanical, as in what constitutes an appropriate challenge for beginning characters.  In my view, the answer is: "Something that almost kills them all, but not quite, and probably does kill some of them".  You want them to feel genuinely threatened, which is why "plot armor" (characters can't die yet because it's important to the DM's "story") is a bad idea in my view.  Anybody should be able to die at any time.  In my opinion, this is what makes it a genuine game, with the element of risk this implies, and not an empty exercise in "role-playing".  Yet you don't want to massacre the whole party every session, or the players will lose heart.  You have to find a balance.  Now I realize this is another one of my statements that may not seem that helpful.  I've been running D&D since 1980 and I can eyeball a challenge for characters of any given level without a second thought, so it's easy for me to say, "Find a balance".  Unfortunately, it's very difficult to explain how to do this to someone who lacks the experience of doing it.  Fortunately, there are models to emulate.  AS&SH is fundamentally very similar to Basic D&D and 1st edition AD&D, with perhaps slightly tougher characters.  So what I would suggest is to look at Old School modules written for first level characters - both the actual ones from back in the day, as well as more recent ones by members of the OSR (like Jeff!) - and see what is considered to be a "fair" challenge in them.  In my experience, provided your players have absorbed the cardinal Old School virtues of planning and caution, the level of challenge represented by published adventures should be survivable.  If they fail to exercise planning and caution - kill their characters until they learn to do so.  Players who refuse to plan and exercise caution in any game should lose, in my opinion.  Can you imagine playing poker and refusing to use any strategy because you're the "hero" and "deserve" to succeed?  Ridiculous.  Role-playing games should be approached the same way, or else (in my opinion) they cease to be games and become exercises in navel-gazing.  And I'm not anybody's therapist.

I hope at least some of that helps.  Good luck with your campaign!