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2/05/2021 4:28 pm  #21


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

rhialto wrote:

Looks like a good start: I'd remove the "Weird Science Item Use" if you're going to add the "Item Use" and "Item Repair", and just add to those two as needed. For "make mechanical/metal based automatons" maybe broaden it to "gadgets"? The "Artefact Identification" seems clunky to me: I'd be more inclined to repurpose the Magician's or Cleric's "% chance to know spell" mechanic to figure an item out.

 

For Artefact Identifaction I am wanting something other than a simple die roll but much simpler than the Gamma World 1e graphs.

It might be able to be expanded to allow other characters to try it using the same mechanic, with significantly worse base chance of success.


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2/06/2021 7:04 am  #22


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

gizmomathboy wrote:

rhialto wrote:

Looks like a good start: I'd remove the "Weird Science Item Use" if you're going to add the "Item Use" and "Item Repair", and just add to those two as needed. For "make mechanical/metal based automatons" maybe broaden it to "gadgets"? The "Artefact Identification" seems clunky to me: I'd be more inclined to repurpose the Magician's or Cleric's "% chance to know spell" mechanic to figure an item out.

 

For Artefact Identifaction I am wanting something other than a simple die roll but much simpler than the Gamma World 1e graphs.

It might be able to be expanded to allow other characters to try it using the same mechanic, with significantly worse base chance of success.

Sorry, what I was suggesting was re-use an existing attribute roll, SV, Progressive Thief Ability, etc. at each stage instead of creating a new "attribute" called "Artefact Identification". Use an Attribute roll (e.g., % Know Spell) if it's level-independent, use SV if it is level-dependent and never better than 50%, or Decipher Artefact (Decipher Script) if it's level-dependent and attribute-dependent. Something like that.https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
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2/06/2021 9:35 am  #23


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Ah, yeah, I was pondering that idea, too. Trying to thinking on your meaning and intention.

I am leaning towards something level dependent.

I suppose if I wanted to be extra...goofy? One could use the Combat or Turning tables. Then non-scientists could be classed as zero level (if using the combat table).

I was thinking of somehow using the bonus spells as a modifier or something, too. Maybe like a +1 modifier to rolls for what would be a bonus spell for magicians.

I still like the idea of a multi-step process to know how to use an artefact. Each step could even have a different "AC" or "undead type". However, I think between you and I we will hammer out something in between :-)

I need to look through the thief skills for stuff to pillage, too.

I definitely like the idea of using existing things within the text. Less work on everyone's part


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2/06/2021 3:17 pm  #24


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Ok, upon some further pondering.

I think using SV is a good, simple alternative to the combat matrix.

As for a modifier, using bonus languages as the modifier in both contexts is what I would go with.

I'm still holding on to a multi-roll process. For now.


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2/06/2021 4:28 pm  #25


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

gizmomathboy wrote:

Ok, upon some further pondering.

I think using SV is a good, simple alternative to the combat matrix.

As for a modifier, using bonus languages as the modifier in both contexts is what I would go with.

I'm still holding on to a multi-roll process. For now.

I like this approach: repurpose an existing mechanic (SV), using modifiers from an existing Attribute table, with multiple stages. 


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
Jack Vance, Maske: Thaery
 

2/06/2021 10:25 pm  #26


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

I'm still enamored with the combat matrix, too.

It gives a lot of granularity/complexity/crunch...if one wants that.

The SV is an alternative that is simpler and I think still achieves the same end.

Now...I need to do some playtesting I guess.


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2/07/2021 8:13 pm  #27


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

My latest edit of the class description.

If you want to play along or just see what I'm up to:

https://github.com/gizmomathboy/hyperborea_class_creation

There are 2 other things rattling in my head still:

a) gadgets acquired by level

Kind of like the runes of a runegraver. So, I just need to think up 16 gadgets that are appropriate and not to overpowered.

b) learn "tech" language

Every 3 or 4 levels learn an language that will help with old secrets and technology: Hyperborean, Atlantean, and Amazonian come to mind. Other races that might be possible: aboleths, crab-men, elder things, fish-men, the Great Race, mi-go, night-gaunts, phoongh, snake-men, spore-men, and tentacular horrors.

Maybe put a mechanic on it sort of like mastery. Base 3:12 to able to decipher a language. At each progression can choose a new language at a base 3:12 or increase the base by 1.

Adding these might necessitate a bump in the XP progression tables. If any other class designers want to chime on on that aspect I would appreciate it.

Gadgeteer/Weird Scientist

Weird Scientists are masters of forgotten Amazonian, Atlantean and Hyperborean lore, lost technologies, and new weird inventions of their own devising. While most folks fear such things, Weird Scientists are fascinated by such lost lore. Weird Scientists may use any weapons, but typically favor lost artifacts or their own creations. The tinkerer is at heart a scavenger of parts.

Attribute Requirements: Dexterity 12, Intelligence 12
Prime Attributes: Dexterity, Intelligence
Hit Die Type: d6
Alignment: Any
Armor Allowed: Light
Shields Allowed: Small
Favored Weapons: Any
Saving Throw Modifiers: Device +2, Avoidance +2

Class Abilities:
Folklore like the bard but restricted to artefacts and old tech, for lack of a better description

Read Languages: can learn/decipher ancient languages, assuming there is a manual about to read

alchemy Per magician classes

create incendiary oil Gadgeteers of GA 1-3 can create 1 flask of Greek Fire per week; those of GA 4-6: 2 flasks per week; those of GA 7-9: 3 per flasks week; and those of GA 10-12: 4 flasks per week. This is dependent upon access to proper materials. Each flask costs 30 gp to make.

Make Bronze or Iron Automatons: Gadgeteers can make Bronze or Iron Automatons with the appropriate Manual of Automaton Creation.

Clandestine Tongue (Weird Science): The obscure language of pseudo-scientists, a strange tongue in which some words may be unintelligible to an ignorant listener, whereas others might be common yet of alternative meaning. This scientifically opaque tongue is used in conjunction with arcane mathematical formulae. Some call this the tongue of the Anunnaki, a mysterious race predating all known humans of Hyperborea.

Weird Science Item Use: Can utilize magic items normally restricted to Magicians, but only if of a weird science origin. Also some like laser swords, radium pistols, amazon skyships, and other things that are more tech than "magic" in nature.

Weird Science Item Repair: They can potentially repair, recharge, or otherwise get an item working that normally others can't. That scope on the laser rifle that just jammed? Maybe a chance to fix it, or that same rifle ran out of charges they can get an additional charge or two. A successful SV is needed. A bonus equal the language bonus is applied along with any penalties the Referee may deem appropriate for complexity or difficulty.

Read Weird Science: The ability to decipher unintelligible weird science inscriptions or symbols placed on weapons, armor, items, doors, walls, scrolls and other media.Artefact Identification: Ability to figure out artefacts. A successful roll for each stage is required to progress to the next stage. Stage one might be skipped if there is a "normal" analogue, e.g. radium pistol vs crossbow, laser spear vs spear, etc.Regardless of success, 1d4 Constitution is used and regained at 1 point per hour or rest. If Constitution drops to 3 or less than the Gadgeteer is knocked unconscious for 24 hours.

1. do you have any idea this is?
2. can you power it up?
3. can you activate it?
4. can you use effectively?

There are two proposed resolution mechanics to succeed at each stage.

1. Make a successful SV with a bonus equal the language bonus is applied along with any penalties the Referee may deem appropriate for complexity or difficulty.

2. Using the Combat Matrix rolling for a successful hit using the AC as an approximation of the complexity or difficulty with a bonus equal the language bonus is applied along with any penalties the Referee may deem appropriate for complexity or difficulty.

Laboratory: At 9th level, a weird scientist who establishes a suitable laboratory will attract a band of followers: 1d12+12 weird science devotees of 0th level (1d4 hp, each with a smattering of nascent weird science abilities) who will serve without pay in exchange for tutelage under their master. The laboratory might be in a city, town, or village. If said laboratory is part of his castle or fortified manor, with a 5- to 10-mile radius of control, the weird scientist also becomes eligible to attract a small body of men-at-arms, 0th-level fighters of 1d8 hp each.Here follows a typical troop:

10 shortbowmen (studded armour, short bows, short swords)
10 light crossbowmen (chain mail, small shields, light crossbows, long spears, short swords)
10 halberdiers / pikemen (splint armour, halberds or pikes, hand axes)

Attracted units include one officer, a 2nd-level fighter responsible for the unit and for communication betwixt the weird scientist and his men. If the reputation of the weird scientist is favourable, further troops may be attracted. Men-at-arms receive 10 gp per month for their service, plus 50 gp for the officer. Common inhabitants of the weird scientist’s domain will provide 5 sp in taxes per person per month. Once control and reputation have been established, the weird scientist also will attract 1d2 apprentice weird scientists (0th-level), who will petition him for learning.

Progressive Thief Abilities:

detect secret doors

manipulate traps

open locks


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2/11/2021 4:41 pm  #28


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Ok, this is very idle thinking and it's still very much in "pondering and does it make sense?"

Really just a list of ideas for gadges and some thoughts on how to maybe group them or something.

Gadgets to choose at each level. Like runes for runegraver

Level Spell Equivalent : LSE

1. flashlight 1st/2nd? LSE?
2. stun baton 3rd LSE?
3. nightvision goggles 2nd/3rd LSE
4. solar charger
   * can recharge other items on a repair item roll
5. diamond charger
   * powered by green diamonds to charge things
6. rebreather/oxygen concentrater
7. xray specs
8. protective equipment
   a. gloves
   b. helmet
      * one item like rebreather, goggles, etc can
        be worn "inside" the helmet
   c. coverall
9. med kit - 1st LSE?
10. boosters - 1st LSE?
  * stat boosters
11. stun gun 3rd LSE?
12. projectile thrower
  * load metal into it and it shoots it
13. drone - like clairvoyance? 3rd LSE
    * can send places to see/hear/examine things
      a. flying
      b. rolling
      c. slithering
      d. swimming
14. radiative warmer - 2nd LSE?
  * heat things within 10 foot radius
  * up to X below zero?
15. damage reduction plates
  * give non-DR armor DR
16. carrying harness - 1st LSE
  * increase encumbrance amounts
17. vapor condenser - 1st LSE
  * get water from the air, purify water
18. magnifier goggles
  * like a spy glass and microscope
19. gadget helmet
      * xray specs, misc goggles, and hearing amplifier
        can be mounted to this to make them available all at once.
        * rebreather
        * only if helmet is taken first
20. hearing amplifier - 3rd LSE
    * like thief hear noise
    * can use a gadget slot to try to improve it on a successful
      repair item roll
21. gadgeteer toolkit

Last edited by gizmomathboy (2/11/2021 4:42 pm)


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2/12/2021 5:01 am  #29


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

If you have access to WotRP there're some gadgets there, too. And Stars Without Number for more advanced gadget inspiration. I do like how you're approaching some gadgets as "gadget-trees".


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
Jack Vance, Maske: Thaery
 

2/12/2021 8:46 am  #30


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Oooh, I forgot to look at WotRP.

I might have Stars Without Number...if not I will get it :-)

Yeah, as it stands now the weird scientist is sort of a crappy thief.

Having something a tiny bit more will hopefully give them some of that weird science flavor.

And as it happens, in both of my campaigns I'll have a play tester in each.

Last night's group are in Brazen Bull and are in the room with the iron statue. It didn't go well.


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2/12/2021 2:48 pm  #31


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Yeah, WotRP definitely has lots of gadget ideas to steal.

Somehow missed it on prior readings.


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2/13/2021 10:12 am  #32


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Stars Without Number has a couple of free editions: lots of inspiration in them (though I find the rules themselves too far beyond the pale).


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
Jack Vance, Maske: Thaery
 

2/13/2021 10:53 am  #33


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Yep, I have a free version. 263 pages is a lot of scrolling to make sure I'm not missing anything ;-)

WotRP has a lot of stuff that falls into what are kinda..."mundane" tech that is probably not game breaking but still interesting as gadgets to have weird scientist acquire as the gain levels.


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2/20/2021 1:13 pm  #34


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

So...added to the gadget list and thoughts about how it might work.

Check it out.

https://github.com/gizmomathboy/hyperborea_class_creation/blob/main/gadgeteer-gadgets.md


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2/21/2021 12:42 pm  #35


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Further exploring my gadgets idea I've taken my list of gadgets and put them into "pools". This was more or less at random.

I am thinking that at the "odd" levels a new pool is unlocked. These are also unlocked at random (at least that's my current idea). Because weird scientists are scroungers and such and can't plan on finding things.

So far there are 6 pools with 6 items in each. However, I am thinking over either rolling on a d8 or d10 list to give a chance to not find a gadget. The first X slots are "no gadget found", these rolls are modified by the weird science modifier which is equivalent to bonus languages. So, a very high IN pc either has a guaranteed chance of finding something or a much better chance.

stuff that are listed like "grenade B" or "lozenge D" are just place holders. They might be like a smoke grenade or a lozenge that cures disease. I'm still figuring that out. The lozenges are roughly equivalent to what snake people can do for potions. Although ampouls and pills are listed. That could expand the list a bit, too.

I put my pools in a github project/kanban board to make it possible to easily drag and drop between pools. Instead scraps of paper :-)

https://github.com/gizmomathboy/hyperborea_class_creation/projects/1


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2/21/2021 3:33 pm  #36


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

I like unlocking pools to roll on, but don't know why you'd have a chance to gain nothing? I prefer classes to have certain automatic ability gains, so wonder what the reasoning behind this is, unless it's to reflect slow spell gains (e.g., as with the Warlock).


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
Jack Vance, Maske: Thaery
 

2/21/2021 4:28 pm  #37


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Hmm, now I have to make my gut concrete! ;-)

I think it is partly that some of the items are "always on and available".

There are also items that are 1 shot things which might off set that.

Also, I see the cohort of folks that are weird scientists as always scrounging and hoarding what they know from competing factions. Maybe from each other.

It is an idea that is still fermenting so I might come up with more items to minimize "not found". Some pools might have more or less of those. A 40% chance of not finding things is definitely at the extreme end of things.

I might just drop it to at most 1 "not found" in a list and remove the bonus to the roll.

I think I have 36 items so for a d8 roll with 1 "not found" I need 6 more items. Probably doable by padding with some pill/ampoule potions :-)

See, this is why one develops out loud, you gotta defend you ideas :-)


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2/21/2021 5:15 pm  #38


Re: New Class: Tinkerer

Exactly! I have an opinion to share, and it's worth precisely what you paid for it: no more, no less. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


"An idea of great merit! While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past."
Jack Vance, Maske: Thaery
 

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