HYPERBOREA » Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Handy Haversack · 4/03/2014 5:25 pm

Odysseus wrote:
IMHO, the prime meridian is useful only if you want to categorize the Hyperborean space without thinking much about crossing the North.
But to navigate, without any tool, you'd need a route listing landmarks and the relative direction from one to the next.
To get back to giving direction, as it is, I think it's quite simple to do it right from your relative stand point or a local map (the arc of the latitude being irrelevant and appearing as a straight line), but a general map of Hyperborea can only confuse you if you're not on the Khromarium Meridian.
But maybe every major town has a Hyperborean map centered on its own meridian ?

I think that's an interesting thought. Since Mt. V *is* directly north of Gal, after all! And of the Isle of Ghul.

Blackadder23 · 4/03/2014 5:46 pm

My view is that every resident of Hyperborea has an instinctive grasp of where Mt. Vhuurmithadon is located at all times. It preys on their minds.

Odysseus · 4/04/2014 5:02 pm

Concerning any Hyperborea born character, I share the view of Blackadder23.

4/05/2014 1:17 am

Just for fun, this should give people a nice idea of what a year of "summer" in Hyperborea would look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndlQNicOeso

JasonZavoda · 4/06/2014 10:56 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
My view is that every resident of Hyperborea has an instinctive grasp of where Mt. Vhuurmithadon is located at all times. It preys on their minds.

And then it eats them.

RedJowel · 4/22/2014 3:27 pm

I really like the map, as it forces you to think of your compass differently and does a lot to immerse players with that otherworldly feeling. It's handy to cut out a small mock compass from cardboard or something with the directions labelled, so wherever our party is it can be placed pointed toward Mt. Vhuurmithadon as easy reference.
Now, I can't seem to find mention of a sextant or compass in the equipment section, though guides and even sea navigators who command decent wages are mentioned in the adventure section. Is there a magnetic north for compasses? how do these specialists keep their bearing in the open ocean? am i just blind and missing it? Of course our wise and august GM has the final word, but Id like to hear some thoughts (or corrections).

nDervish · 4/23/2014 5:05 am

Related question: Since Mount Vhuurmithadon is the center of the world and used as a universal reference point... Is it visible from everywhere in Hyperborea (ignoring local obstructions, of course)?

I seem to recall having read a mention at some point that Hyperborea is concave, although that didn't specify whether it was referring to the upper or lower surface. If the upper surface is concave, then that would mean that, like an ant on the inside of a bowl, you would potentially be able to see all the way across to the other side. Even if the upper surface were flat (or very slightly convex), the horizon would be far enough out that Mount Vhuurmithadon would be visible from everywhere.

Handy Haversack · 4/23/2014 7:58 am

RedJowel wrote:
Now, I can't seem to find mention of a sextant or compass in the equipment section, though guides and even sea navigators who command decent wages are mentioned in the adventure section. Is there a magnetic north for compasses? how do these specialists keep their bearing in the open ocean? am i just blind and missing it? Of course our wise and august GM has the final word, but Id like to hear some thoughts (or corrections).

As I recall, the main skill of the navigators was avoiding whirlpools and the like. Someone in this thread suggested that all Hyperboreans (of all races) could instinctively know which was is north as Mt. V calls to them, which is a cool idea. But I would think compasses that always point north would be reasonable, as would some device for determining the longitude lines--possibly attuned to the Obelisks somehow?

nDervish: Huh. I wouldn't think so, but it's a cool idea!

joseph · 4/23/2014 8:08 am

nDervish wrote:
I seem to recall having read a mention at some point that Hyperborea is concave, although that didn't specify whether it was referring to the upper or lower surface. If the upper surface is concave, then that would mean that, like an ant on the inside of a bowl, you would potentially be able to see all the way across to the other side. Even if the upper surface were flat (or very slightly convex), the horizon would be far enough out that Mount Vhuurmithadon would be visible from everywhere.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I am sure the reference is in the Gazatteer... Hyperborea is slightly convex (like a bowl upside-down) so that the seas move outwards and don't swamp the land. Sorry I don't have the page...

nDervish · 4/23/2014 9:02 am

joseph wrote:
nDervish wrote:
I seem to recall having read a mention at some point that Hyperborea is concave, although that didn't specify whether it was referring to the upper or lower surface.
I don't have the book in front of me, but I am sure the reference is in the Gazatteer... Hyperborea is slightly convex (like a bowl upside-down) so that the seas move outwards and don't swamp the land. Sorry I don't have the page...

Not sure why I didn't think to look there... It's p.179, first sentence of the "HYPERBOREA in RELATION to OLD EARTH and the CELESTIAL BODIES" section:

Hyperborea is a flat, hexagonal plane, though men of learning who measure the stars suggest the realm to be somewhat concave.

So I did remember correctly - it says concave, not convex. (According to a text search, the word "convex" does not appear in the GM's book and this is the only occurrence of "concave".)

I would expect that the reason the seas flow off the edge rather than draining into the center would be due to the Hyperboran hexagon spinning around an axis that runs through Mt.V., causing centrifugal force[1] to pull the seas outward. (If it doesn't spin, then that would mean that Helios orbits Hyperborea. Which is possible, given that Hyperborea already discards large chunks of real-world science anyhow. Has that ever been addressed in canon?)

In any case, whether Hyperborea is completely flat or slightly concave, that would mean that there's no horizon as we know it and suggest that Mt.V. should be visible from anywhere, unless another object is in the way or you're far enough away that atmospheric attenuation renders it too dim to be perceived (although I'm not sure whether Hyperborea is large enough for that to happen).

[1] Yes, I know there's no such thing as "centrifugal force" in the real world, it's actually just the action of inertia within a non-inertial frame of reference. But it's also the most straightforward way to express myself here.

Ghul · 4/23/2014 9:43 am

The first thing to keep in mind is that the Gazetteer is largely presented from the viewpoint of sages from Khromarium, so there are cases of "unreliable narrator" at work, but not to a degree that it is intended to screw over the referee. As far as concavity goes, the idea is that the great ice sheets spawned by the Ashen Worm depressed the much of the central landmass, so that the plains and deserts interior to the coastline appear to dip. In the real world, this phenomenon is observed in Greenland. In truth, the entire "plane" of Hyperborea is flat with interior continental portions of concavity, leading the sages to suppose the entire world dips down, despite the awesome rise of the central mountain range of the Spiral Mountain Array. Notwithstanding, while I was developing the setting, I did a fair amount of research on horizons and flat planes, and I came to learn that even a flat horizon is not going to yield much more to the human eye than a convex horizon would. When you couple this with the sheer of multitude of peaks enclosing Mt. Vhuurmithadon, I find it hard to conceptualize the treble-peaked mountain being visible from ANY point, but I am open to discussing the subject, because I find it fascinating.

joseph · 4/23/2014 10:04 am

nDervish wrote:
Not sure why I didn't think to look there... It's p.179, first sentence of the "HYPERBOREA in RELATION to OLD EARTH and the CELESTIAL BODIES" section:

Hyperborea is a flat, hexagonal plane, though men of learning who measure the stars suggest the realm to be somewhat concave.
So I did remember correctly - it says concave, not convex. (According to a text search, the word "convex" does not appear in the GM's book and this is the only occurrence of "concave".)

Doh! I stand corrected! Looks like I was remembering this backwards. Sorry for the confusion!

nDervish · 4/23/2014 10:54 am

Ghul wrote:
Notwithstanding, while I was developing the setting, I did a fair amount of research on horizons and flat planes, and I came to learn that even a flat horizon is not going to yield much more to the human eye than a convex horizon would.

That would be the atmospheric attenuation I mentioned, I just don't know the proper term for it or how much of a limiting factor it would be.

Ghul wrote:
When you couple this with the sheer of multitude of peaks enclosing Mt. Vhuurmithadon,

Interesting... In my mind, Mt.V. stands head and shoulders above the rest of the Spiral Array, as if you dropped Mt. Everest (8800+ meters) into the middle of the Rocky Mountains (3,100-4,400 meters). So seeing it past them wouldn't be any issue in my version.

Ghul wrote:
I find it hard to conceptualize the treble-peaked mountain being visible from ANY point, but I am open to discussing the subject, because I find it fascinating.

It's just a stray thought that hit me while going through this discussion and seemed cool. If it's not officially the case, I'll have to think about whether I want to use it in my Hyperborea or not.

Chainsaw · 4/25/2014 8:37 pm

I have to admit, directions in Hyperborea have always confused me a litte bit, but this thread (and staring at the map and trying to visualize the curvative of a globe) has helped (or will, I should say).

Blackadder23 · 4/25/2014 9:52 pm

Ghul wrote:
I find it hard to conceptualize the treble-peaked mountain being visible from ANY point, but I am open to discussing the subject, because I find it fascinating.

Perhaps a sort of mirage, like in At the Mountains of Madness?

Handy Haversack · 4/26/2014 1:18 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
Ghul wrote:
I find it hard to conceptualize the treble-peaked mountain being visible from ANY point, but I am open to discussing the subject, because I find it fascinating.
Perhaps a sort of mirage, like in At the Mountains of Madness?

We all know how well *that* worked out!

Now that my players are out in the world, I've found that so far what they're asking is "how long will it take?" not "what direction is it?" The sad and funny thing is that the answer to both questions is the same: "You're doomed! Doomed!"