HYPERBOREA » Sources of XP

Handy Haversack · 4/24/2014 5:15 pm

Sometimes I'm tempted to give XP just for being scared enough of monsters. I think I'm in it for the monsters, when all is said and done. I just like monsters.

Chainsaw · 4/24/2014 5:31 pm

Let's keep things civil and friendly, guys. We're talking about playing make-believe, not whether the cure for cancer should be free.

JasonZavoda · 4/24/2014 5:49 pm

Chainsaw wrote:
Let's keep things civil and friendly, guys. We're talking about playing make-believe, not whether the cure for cancer should be free or something.

That was me being civil and light hearted and friendly. That is about as nice as I get.

nDervish · 4/25/2014 5:27 am

Ghul wrote:
I do it by the book, as demonstrated in Table III.27:

I think it would be more accurate to say that the book does it by Ghul.

But, yes, I'm familiar with that table. My question was aimed more at, if the characters receive 10,000XP over the course of several sessions, how many of those XP would (on average) be from each of the table's six categories?

And, as pointed out above, this also has an implicit aspect of "how much treasure do you tend to give out?", since percentage of XP from treasure is one of the categories on the table.

Yora wrote:
Though thid probably is a topic by itself, why is advancement at different paces even desirable?

First, there's the balancing function mentioned earlier. A level 8 Warlock is more powerful than a level 8 Thief, but we can at least attempt to manipulate the XP tables so that a 200,000 XP Warlock is roughly on par with a 200,000 XP Thief. Of course, given the increasing XP costs for higher levels, this is typically no more than a one-level difference (e.g., level 8 Warlock vs. level 9 Thief at 200,000 XP).

Second, and IMO more important, is the increasing XP costs for higher levels. Suppose that you and I have our PCs out adventuring together and my character dies just as your Warlock reaches level 6 (48,000 XP). I think your character is awesomely cool, so I make a level 1 Warlock as my new character[1]. By the standard progression rules, when I get to level 6 (48,000 XP), you'll be hitting level 7 (96,000 XP). With a system which ignores the escalating XP costs (as Progress Percent appears to), you would be up to level 11 by the time I reach level 6 - I can never close the level gap between us.

[1] You can definitely make arguments that my replacement character shouldn't start at level 1, but, for the purposes of this discussion, please accept that he does start at level 1, regardless of whether he should or not.

Blackadder23 wrote:
In my opinion, XP for money and treasure was one of Gary's most brilliant design decisions: 1 XP for 1 GP, and a set amount for each monster. All very cut and dried, nothing left to chance or DM whim, and best of all objective.

Agreed! I didn't grok that back in the 70s/80s, so my friends and I played with XP for monsters only, but I really like it now that I've caught on.

JasonZavoda wrote:
You must have had some suck-ass DM's because if I wanted to screw with you as one then xp reward would be pretty far down my list

The issue isn't GMs who want to screw with the players, but rather with the general inability of humans to be fully aware of their own subjective biases. If a player sucks up to me, or is a close friend, or is someone I find attractive (in the "halo effect" sense, not the "hot girl" sense, although the two admittedly do overlap), then I'm going to be more inclined to give them subjective awards for "good roleplaying" (or whatever) than I am to give similar awards to someone who I don't like as much for purely out-of-game reasons, even if they're the better roleplayer (or whatever). And if, knowing about this effect, I try to compensate for it, I'm likely to overcompensate and simply shift the bias to the opposite direction rather than eliminating it.

Crisippo · 4/25/2014 5:29 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
Gold in D&D obviously represents a proxy for all the activities undertaken to gain it.

I find the use of treasure XP-rewards as a proxy quite elegant as well. It took me many years to realize and ASSH was intrumental in making me see that particular light. Now, i'm not anti-story in any sense, though i would say i'm anti-railroad (but that is a different discussion).

I basically use awards for defeating (i.e not neccessarily fighting) monsters, treasure and attendance awards as a base (probably around 3/4 of total XP) combined with ad hoc rewards for campaign goals, roleplaying, problem solving and so on. My players seem quite satisfied with this. I think they view the XP-awards as more "objective" than they really are and that the story itself is its own reward.

As for sucking up to the DM... i give them XP awards for helping me move aswell... Because the game isn't that serious.

mabon5127 · 4/25/2014 7:32 am

nDervish wrote:
Second, and IMO more important, is the increasing XP costs for higher levels. Suppose that you and I have our PCs out adventuring together and my character dies just as your Warlock reaches level 6 (48,000 XP). I think your character is awesomely cool, so I make a level 1 Warlock as my new character[1]. By the standard progression rules, when I get to level 6 (48,000 XP), you'll be hitting level 7 (96,000 XP). With a system which ignores the escalating XP costs (as Progress Percent appears to), you would be up to level 11 by the time I reach level 6 - I can never close the level gap between us.

I think this is one of the areas that is genius in the game, the progressive xp system. My character dies but within a few adventures can be within a level of my compatriots. With static numbers used for awarding xp this allows the character not to feel left behind forever, but also not completely erase the sting of dying.

Ghul · 4/25/2014 8:59 am

mabon5127 wrote:
nDervish wrote:
My question was aimed more at, if the characters receive 10,000XP over the course of several sessions, how many of those XP would (on average) be from each of the table's six categories?
At the risk of sounding generic, it really does depend on the adventure. Some monsters are worth quite a chunk of XP, but might yield little treasure. Other monsters are worth less, yet are asociated with treasure that yields a big XP gain. In other situations (when using the BTB table), you might have a situation where a great mystery was solved, or a notable goal achieved. You, as referee, decide that it warrants a 250 or even 500 XP bonus.

Typically, I write each character's name down and divide them into short columns. In these columns, throughout the course of the night, I award some "checks" and "check pluses," marked in the columns. The former is worth 25 XP, the latter 50 XP. Did your thief say, "OK, everyone back up 50 feet. I think this door is trapped, and I am going to disarm it." I might award a check if he succeeds. This type of award is not limited to "ability heavy" characters; for example, if the party is about to enter a hostile situation, one that looks like potentiallu insurmountable odds, and the fighter says, "Everyone get in back of me." I like that sort of thing. Big guy steps to the fore and assumes his role. There can be countless other examples.

nDervish wrote:
Second, and IMO more important, is the increasing XP costs for higher levels. Suppose that you and I have our PCs out adventuring together and my character dies just as your Warlock reaches level 6 (48,000 XP). I think your character is awesomely cool, so I make a level 1 Warlock as my new character[1]. By the standard progression rules, when I get to level 6 (48,000 XP), you'll be hitting level 7 (96,000 XP). With a system which ignores the escalating XP costs (as Progress Percent appears to), you would be up to level 11 by the time I reach level 6 - I can never close the level gap between us.
I think this is one of the areas that is genius in the game, the progressive xp system. My character dies but within a few adventures can be within a level of my compatriots. With static numbers used for awarding xp this allows the character not to feel left behind forever, but also not completely erase the sting of dying.

Exactly so, and thank you Gary and Dave. When the young PC rubs elbows with the mid-level PCs, he is going to catch up rather quickly -- if he can survive.

Handy Haversack · 4/25/2014 11:42 am

I tend to tone down the XP for GP a touch, maybe make it 1:2. Not because I have any problem at all with the mechanic; I just like slower advancement. I also tend to way tone down the XP for magic items, especially the, well, mundaner ones, for the same reason.

I like the participation award Ghul added to the system!

nDervish · 4/25/2014 12:03 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
I tend to tone down the XP for GP a touch, maybe make it 1:2. Not because I have any problem at all with the mechanic; I just like slower advancement.

One idea I've seen mentioned online (and am considering trying out) is to give XP for gold squandered rather than for gold recovered. So you don't get the XP unless you spend the gold on something which provides no (other) game-mechanical benefit - basically like the Drunken Debauchery table, but voluntary. Sit on a hoard of gold? No XP. Buy new weapons and armor? No XP. Throw it away on booze and wenches? Now you get XP!

In principle I like the idea. In practice, I can see some very obvious potential issues and odd results - at the very least, you'd definitely get a lot more cases of characters with exactly enough XP to go up a level and not a single XP more.

This would slow advancement down somewhat, though probably not as much as making it 1:2 for treasure recovered. But, then, if I were to decide that I want to slow advancement, I would reduce all XP equally, regardless of source, rather than reducing the XP rate for bringing loot home, because that effectively increases the XP incentive for just killing everything you see.

RedJowel · 4/25/2014 2:37 pm

Our GM beleived gold to be it's own reward, but i may bring the topic back up with him, as xp for gold bring player tactics more in line with the feel of as&sh. "success is survival with increased wealth", as i think was stated in the games intro, and i like that, more then the group of mighty heros who are expected to annialate all in there path and end every session striking epic poses over burning ruins. Most of the time wealth is the motive and primary objective, so why wouldn't you get bettar at getting it?

Odysseus · 4/25/2014 4:10 pm

Ghul wrote:
I do it by the book, as demonstrated in Table III.27:

I'd love to use this table but, knowing myself, I know I won't just out of laziness to do all the maths.
Also, to better control the power progression of the game, I'm quite certain that I'd use some kind of "earn a level every X game session". Despite the fact that I totally agree with all the good things told about the Gold XPs system and woud love to play by the book.

nDervish wrote:
My question was aimed more at, if the characters receive 10,000XP over the course of several sessions, how many of those XP would (on average) be from each of the table's six categories?

As I understand the game and PCs's goal (i.e. getting richer instead of killing each and every creature met), I assume treasure should be the main source of XPs.

nDervish · 4/26/2014 1:18 am

RedJowel wrote:
Our GM beleived gold to be it's own reward

I take it your GM doesn't use the Drunken Debauchery table, then? If characters are assumed to waste all their money on ale and wenches before the next adventure starts, then wealth is a meaningless reward in itself.

RedJowel · 4/26/2014 2:29 pm

No we havent used the drunken debauchery table, but are aware of it and may use it next time as wer'e finally bringing a decent haul back to the city(which, thanks to us, is leaderless, undergoing civil strife and recovering from a massive over-seas viking raid). So, it remains to be seen if drunken debauchery is even an option tommorow night as most of us are and look like vikings and may not be terrribly welcome,

In any case are you saying the table should be used automatically betwixt all adventures and only then get xp for gold spent? I like to think i have a more foreward thinking fighter who would save all the wealth he could for bettar men and equipment, but sometimes you just gotta let loose......

4/26/2014 3:12 pm

RedJowel wrote:
*snip*
In any case are you saying the table should be used automatically betwixt all adventures and only then get xp for gold spent? I like to think i have a more foreward thinking fighter who would save all the wealth he could for bettar men and equipment, but sometimes you just gotta let loose......

The better men and better equipment is its own reward and gives the character a mechanical advantage in the game. By incentivizing blowing their cash on wine, women and gambling, they are simply exchanging those external advantages and instead interalizing it by leveling up faster and becoming more personally powerful. Mostly, I just like that it gives players choices and something to think about. Plus any time the characters are broke, it gives me opportunities to scre ... er ... present challenges for them to tackle.

Handy Haversack · 4/26/2014 4:36 pm

NAJones wrote:
RedJowel wrote:
*snip*
In any case are you saying the table should be used automatically betwixt all adventures and only then get xp for gold spent? I like to think i have a more foreward thinking fighter who would save all the wealth he could for bettar men and equipment, but sometimes you just gotta let loose......
The better men and better equipment is its own reward and gives the character a mechanical advantage in the game. By incentivizing blowing their cash on wine, women and gambling, they are simply exchanging those external advantages and instead interalizing it by leveling up faster and becoming more personally powerful. Mostly, I just like that it gives players choices and something to think about. Plus any time the characters are broke, it gives me opportunities to scre ... er ... present challenges for them to tackle.

I can't keep my players from rolling on the Drunk and Debauchery table! They would be in open rebellion. It's one of their favorite parts so far. And it consistently produces results that spur on more adventures and add to the campaign. I think it's fantastic. And it's also a great way, I think, to keep magic items from becoming too permanent or too plentiful. If they have consistenly blown their cash on drinking sprees, they might end up needing to trade those items for training when they go up a level. Heh.

Plus, last time, we got to have a fun conversation on the difference between a "totem" and a "fetish"' found out the pyromancer "burns it at both ends," if you know what I mean; and made sure the illusionist could never go back to his hometown after drunkenly challenging his master to a sorcerous battle. Which he lost. Badly. And quickly. And while still drunk.

Also a great way to introduce new characters.

Chainsaw · 4/26/2014 9:00 pm

nDervish wrote:
I'm curious about how current ASSH GMs prefer to divide up different sources of XP. ACKS suggests that 80% of characters' XP should come from treasure and 20% from defeating monsters. Is a similar division common in ASSH or do you tend to move the balance to one side or the other? And then there are the additional XP sources listed on Players' Manual 228 aside from monsters and treasure...

I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that I have never given the ratio much thought, though maybe I should have, I don't know. I just make up adventures, throw in some monsters and roll for treasure, occasionally adding a cool magic item if nothing pops up normally. I never consciously manage the ratio on a session-by-session basis, as that wouldn't necessarily make sense given the flow of the game, in my opinion. Anyway, here's the distribution from the first ten sessions of my last AD&D game. After that, I got too lazy to track everything in Excel, so I don't have the data.

Monster, Treasure, Other
25%, 34.2%, 40.8%
14.4%, 9.5%, 76.1%
10.9%, 89.1%, 0%
9.3%, 90.7%, 0%
11.6%, 88.4%, 0%
32.2%, 67.8%, 0%
69.8%, 30.2%, 0%
100%, 0%, 0%
2.6%, 97.4%, 0%
55.1%, 44.9%, 0%

Split over all 10 sessions:
22.7%, 66.2%, 11.2%

So, looks like like it was lumpy from session to session, which makes sense. In the beginning, I had more "solve the mystery" and "role playing" and "good idea" type awards given the PCs' fragility. I oriented the adventures more towards non-fighting based challenges. After that, it tended more toward treasure over monster, but there were some sessions where you get half-way through a lair, earning lots of monster XP, but no real treasure XP, then finish the thing in the next session, maybe showing less monster XP and a big wad of treasure XP. I probably should have built in more opportunities for "other" in the later sessions, but the guys were either getting powerful enough that things were moving along nicely without that or they avoided opportunities for the other category (I guess). Across all ten, you can see that it was fairly biased toward treasure XP, then monster XP, then other XP. The group never really had any complaints.

For the record, on a conceptual basis, I run my AD&D XP award system similarly to what Jeff's got in AS&SH. When I get my formal AS&SH game up and running, I can't imagine the approach will be too much different.

Ghul · 4/26/2014 9:25 pm

Fascinating results, Chainsaw. Like I suspected, the XP distribution can be all over the place.

Chainsaw · 4/26/2014 9:44 pm

Ghul wrote:
Fascinating results, Chainsaw. Like I suspected, the XP distribution can be all over the place.

Luckily I did not set out to record the data with nDervish's question in mind, as that would have likely created some subconscious bias. I mean, you know, it's only ten samples, so not exactly proof of anything, but still worth posting, I suppose.

nDervish · 4/27/2014 5:21 am

RedJowel wrote:
In any case are you saying the table should be used automatically betwixt all adventures and only then get xp for gold spent? I like to think i have a more foreward thinking fighter who would save all the wealth he could for bettar men and equipment, but sometimes you just gotta let loose......

The table itself says that it should be used automatically betwixt all adventures (emphasis mine):

Drunken Debauchery Table wrote:
Sword & sorcery characters seldom start any adventure laden with great wealth, and they frequently squander their hard-won money and treasure on temporary pleasures. When a player character finishes an adventure and returns to whatever passes for civilization to rest and recuperate, follow this procedure...

As far as the second part, about only gaining XP for wealth squandered, it's an idea I've seen online and find interesting ("Do I want more XP, or do I want to spend my money on hiring and equipping mercenaries?", but I haven't tried it myself and can see it leading to potential problems. If I were to do that, my first inclination would be to let the players decide how much they want to spend on carousing (or temple donations, or magical research, or training, or whatever) rather than rolling to determine the amount, so that it's a meaningful player choice rather than something imposed on them by fate.

Chainsaw wrote:
I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that I have never given the ratio much thought, though maybe I should have, I don't know. I just make up adventures, throw in some monsters and roll for treasure, occasionally adding a cool magic item if nothing pops up normally.

Yeah, that's what I tend to do as well. I don't think it would have ever occurred to me to think about it if not for the ACKS rules stating repeatedly that characters should get about 20% of their XP from killing monsters and 80% from treasure. (It even goes beyond that suggestion to talking about stocking dungeons by first deciding what treasure you want to place and then dividing it by 4 to determine how many XP worth of monsters should be present on the level. Umm... no, I don't think so...)

Handy Haversack · 4/27/2014 2:57 pm

nDervish wrote:
Chainsaw wrote:
I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that I have never given the ratio much thought, though maybe I should have, I don't know. I just make up adventures, throw in some monsters and roll for treasure, occasionally adding a cool magic item if nothing pops up normally.
Yeah, that's what I tend to do as well.

Me, too. I have to think it's the rule rather than the exception. Then if they're getting too big for their metal britches, vampire lever.