I might have gone with no save, here's my theory; Damage reduction basically is the armor's ability to block contact from creatures. Damage Reduction applies to melee and missile attacks, but not traps, falling damage, poison, flaming oil or most spells. 

The way I see it is that the paralysis of Ghouls (and other creatures) is from direct contact with the PC's skin. If the DR reduces damage to 0 or below (meaning the armor was contacted but it was not breached), contact with the PC's skin was prohibited. Therefore no save vs paralysis. 

Though that would me my ruling at the table only, and definitely not the word of law. YMMV

I can however attest to the lethality of Chainsaws game!

Last edited by mavfire (11/21/2018 3:15 pm)

I personally would probably also rule that a ghoul's attack that was reduced to 0 hp by DR didn't have a paralyzing effect. However...

There are a lot of touch attacks that only have a special effect - they don't do any actual damage. For example, a poison or white hand of death spell. How would that be handled, given a target with DR? Would the effect always just ignore the DR? (That would likely be my personal inclination, but it's something to think about.)

Last edited by Blackadder23 (11/21/2018 6:44 pm)

Blackadder23 wrote:

I personally would probably also rule that a ghoul's attack that was reduced to 0 hp by DR didn't have a paralyzing effect. However...

There are a lot of touch attacks that only have a special effect - they don't do any actual damage. For example, a poison or white hand of death spell. How would that be handled, given a target with DR? Would the effect always just ignore the DR? (That would likely be my personal inclination, but it's something to think about.)

I typically rule that an ability, be it poison, paralysis, or any other detrimental effect, that is contingent on a "hit" must cause damage for that ability to function. In the case of touch attacks, that is different. It has to specifically say that it is a touch attack, in which case DR is not a factor.

All that being said, it warms my cold, cruel heart to read that some of my fellow referees are more harsh than I am. I will be sure to inform my players of this.
 

Blackadder23 wrote:

There are a lot of touch attacks that only have a special effect - they don't do any actual damage. For example, a poison or white hand of death spell. How would that be handled, given a target with DR? Would the effect always just ignore the DR? (That would likely be my personal inclination, but it's something to think about.)

Damage reduction applies only versus melee and missile attacks, not against most sorcery, so it wouldn’t protect from a poison or white hand of death spell.

Lots of great comments here!  I'm now leaning towards no save myself.  One more factor is that AC is based in large part on the armor the character is wearing.  Any thing that would hit an unarmored version of the character (adjusted for dex) up to the armored AC  is stopped by the armor thus implying some sort of touch or 0 damage hit but that doesn't cause a save vs. paralyzation, so I'm thinking DR to 0 could mean the armor isn't really penetrated at all which is essence is the same result.  (In the situation I described in the OP the rest of the party took care of the creatures pretty quickly thereafter so no harm no foul!)

Last edited by lige (11/22/2018 3:44 pm)

I from the very early days of playing D&D, thought that it was the ghoul's claws that infected a person, so the filthy fingernails and unclean disposition of the undead creature contaminated the victim. So DR must stop this, it not flesh rubbing on flesh as its leaned against a exposed fleshy area of a character, it needs to infect and that means, lacerations, etc.

The fact that it is an instant paralyzation on a failed safe, could be slowed, but that would take a hit location rule, though one could opt to just allow it for this sole attack...

An adventurer hit in the right arm, would feel the effect slowly move though their arm, so in first round they drop their sword, unable to hold it, the next round it is seeping into their heart causing the full effect of paralyse, but at least it might give PC time to stagger away.

A hit to neck or head is instantaneous, etc.

Handy Haversack wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

I'm on the other side of fence from Ghul here. A hit is a hit, regardless of damage. Can't tell you how many times I've picked up a scratch or a bruise or a tick in the woods and never felt it until later.....

It may shock you all to learn I agree. I think this comes down to personal aesthetics, though. No one is ever going to prove one side "right" -- but to me it adds to the horror of the ghoul that even though your armor prevented it from damaging you, you can feel waves of nauseous cold spreading from that tiny scratch it managed to make on your neck . . .

It comes down to some thinking DR means any contact is completely negated vs. others who think that it only negates the mechanical effect on HP. To my mind, since HP are abstract anyway and merely represent your ability to keep fighting, NOT actual wounding, there's no reason that negating the HP damage also negates any possibility of touching -- that's what the save is for!

I guess if you don't respect yourself you could always give a bonus on the save. +1 or +.025, maybe . . .

There you go, going soft on everybody again!
 

Chainsaw wrote:

Handy used to be a hardass, now he's all, "I might give someone a +.025 bonus." What happened to you?

No softness there. Handy didn't say "I might" he said "YOU might".  HUGE difference. Stay HARD Handy!

Last edited by Iron Ranger (1/23/2019 1:13 pm)

A hit is a hit
Now make a saving throw!