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7/15/2018 9:29 pm  #1


Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

I ran a playtest of AS&SoH this afternoon, and presented players with a puzzle for their characters to solve.  I asked the *literate* characters for a Test of Intelligence, slipping unknowingly into my habits from 5th ed D&D and similar games I've run over the last few years, and we were a little surprised to discover that the non-physical attributes have no such feature.  It was a simple enough matter to add the Tests and Extraordinary Feats based on the Physical attributes and move on.  But it got me wondering... as designers, why were these attributes not included?  What was your design intent for the mechanic to be used instead?  Has anyone else been houseruling Tests and Feats this way, and if so, what has been your experience?


Behold! The Wizard.
Beware his powers!
UNSPEAKABLE POWERS!
 

7/15/2018 9:54 pm  #2


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

I would be opposed to it myself. The players are supposed to be supplying the brains and common sense for their characters. In my opinion, it's a cop-out for players to ask for a roll instead of actually solving the puzzle themselves.

As to why the tests weren't included in the rules, you'd have to ask Jeff. I'd be surprised if his reasoning weren't similar to what I just stated.


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

7/15/2018 10:18 pm  #3


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

I'm with Ben on this one.
Plus, I think Player struggle is more fun than Character struggle. I will never forget 3 sessions of standing in the hallway of Castle Caldwell trying to figure out -  Oh What A Goose I Am.  Never.


 
 

7/16/2018 11:26 am  #4


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Blackadder23 wrote:

I would be opposed to it myself. The players are supposed to be supplying the brains and common sense for their characters. In my opinion, it's a cop-out for players to ask for a roll instead of actually solving the puzzle themselves.

As to why the tests weren't included in the rules, you'd have to ask Jeff. I'd be surprised if his reasoning weren't similar to what I just stated.

I think you are correct as to the reasoning. I agree to an extent.  I would like to see the same rolls for the mental attributes. 

I would not let a character try to get around a puzzle or quandary simply by making an intelligence roll. But to know things a super genius wizard may know by making an int roll or notice things like a wise priest, or embolden troops like a charismatic paladin that might be cool.

Could they bypass the hard player decisions by making a character roll? Nah.
 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

7/16/2018 12:13 pm  #5


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Inspiring troops (and really anything that falls under the rubric of charisma) is already covered by the reaction roll, in my opinion.

If someone is playing a super genius wizard and wants to know something that a super genius wizard would know, I tell him. No roll needed.


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

7/16/2018 1:00 pm  #6


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Blackadder23 wrote:

Inspiring troops (and really anything that falls under the rubric of charisma) is already covered by the reaction roll, in my opinion.

If someone is playing a super genius wizard and wants to know something that a super genius wizard would know, I tell him. No roll needed.

Yup I generally tell them as well.  There seems to be as many uses of the rolls for mental characteristics as physical IMO.  I know I know its my campaign do what you want but.....

As a GM I may want to move forward the action by allowing things to go right.  The boulder is moved, the lore remembered, the troops are rallied.  Sometimes that part of the dungeon is not finished and so the boulder is beyond lifting, the memory confused, the troops need a rest!  Most of the time, in the middle, lies uncertainty.  The roll brings a heightened tension and danger and frankly keeps me on my toes as even I the GM must react to the dice gods!  

I don't want to leave out those opportunities for the mental attributes. 

As the 2nd Ed is published the discussion is academic but fun none the less!

 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

7/16/2018 3:52 pm  #7


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

I certainly appreciate the value of situations where not even the DM knows the outcome. When I want one of those situations with respect to information, I say "You have a 25% (or 50%, or whatever) chance of knowing that." Or I might even roll d% myself to find the chance. If instead the number appears on a character sheet as an official mechanic, it becomes an entitlement. And a "Get Out of Using Your Brain Free" card, to my mind, is a very bad entitlement.
That's why I support Jeff's decision to omit this type of thing from the game entirely. What anyone wants to do at their own table is, of course, their own concern.


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

7/16/2018 4:37 pm  #8


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Blackadder23 wrote:

I certainly appreciate the value of situations where not even the DM knows the outcome. When I want one of those situations with respect to information, I say "You have a 25% (or 50%, or whatever) chance of knowing that." Or I might even roll d% myself to find the chance. If instead the number appears on a character sheet as an official mechanic, it becomes an entitlement. And a "Get Out of Using Your Brain Free" card, to my mind, is a very bad entitlement.
That's why I support Jeff's decision to omit this type of thing from the game entirely. What anyone wants to do at their own table is, of course, their own concern.

Because I value your wisdom in these matters.... If the mechanic provides entitlement for information could the same be said for physical things.  The character could claim they could lift a twelve ton boulder because they have a number on their sheet.  The impossible is still impossible.  Information is a bit harder to say "you can't know that" but there are still new things to learn and discover. Information is imperfect and untrue rumors abound.

Regardless, I agree with you using a roll to replace role is not the point of the exercise. If that were the case then you could just roll a d6 and on a 1-3 hand out xp and treasure.

Thanks for the discussion.


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

7/16/2018 5:01 pm  #9


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

For reasons well-articulated above, I omitted mental tests and feats so as to prevent the solving of problems or the piecing together of puzzles through a roll. Oftentimes I will simply do as BA23 mentioned, above: I'll simply tell the player if his character knows about some piece of information, or not. Once in a while, however, I may allow for a random d6 resolution roll. In an ancient mound where a Hyperborean king of old was interred, my player of a Hyperborean purloiner may ask me, "Have I ever heard of this guy in here?" I might then ask his level, his intelligence, and his wisdom, and give him a chance-in-six to know some piece of information, be it important or trivial. 


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

7/16/2018 6:01 pm  #10


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Ghul wrote:

For reasons well-articulated above, I omitted mental tests and feats so as to prevent the solving of problems or the piecing together of puzzles through a roll. Oftentimes I will simply do as BA23 mentioned, above: I'll simply tell the player if his character knows about some piece of information, or not. Once in a while, however, I may allow for a random d6 resolution roll. In an ancient mound where a Hyperborean king of old was interred, my player of a Hyperborean purloiner may ask me, "Have I ever heard of this guy in here?" I might then ask his level, his intelligence, and his wisdom, and give him a chance-in-six to know some piece of information, be it important or trivial. 

And this is where I lean heavily on the Non-Standard Tasks roll, too: it's basically the Swiss-Army-Knife of subsystems which allows the DM and Player to role-play through the scene and then the DM judiciously weighs the odds and comes up with a throw, if needed. I'd not allow an Int/Wis/Cha roll like the physical stats to ever "solve" a puzzle.


"It is all very well to point out that the man lacks facility; as he asserts, sheer force can overpower sophistication."
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellous
 

7/16/2018 7:26 pm  #11


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

The OP describes a classic old-school from new school paradigm shift! I waited to chime in on this until Jeff and crew, but my players were surprised and befuddled by the omission too. Like the OP, I suspect, we came from a background of rolling attributes/skills against difficulties, for everything, Intelligence and Wisdom included. It was a re-learning curve of my players to engage their brains and interact with the described environment to do things like solve puzzles, negotiate with NPCs and find secret doors. But adjust they did, and wound up liking it more.
As far as lore, I presume classes have know-how of their class. A career fighter can surmise tactics and identify uniforms and weaponry. A wizard has an education in eldritch mysteries. A cleric has a broad knowledge of religious practices. A thief is sreetwise. A druid can survive in the bush. Beyond that ... I fish for character development through sudden remembrances and insight. If a player asks a question, its a signal to me that they are interested in the answer so I don't want to shut it down right away. I might get a hook out of it, too! I'll ask, "how might your character know?" and if the reason is plausible, then they get the truth or a chance with a d6 non-standard task resolution mechanic (pg 234).


"Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, it's not a game."  ~ Gary Gygax
 

7/16/2018 7:34 pm  #12


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Jimm.Iblis wrote:

Beyond that ... I fish for character development through sudden remembrances and insight. If a player asks a question, its a signal to me that they are interested in the answer so I don't want to shut it down right away. I might get a hook out of it, too! I'll ask, "how might your character know?" and if the reason is plausible, then they get the truth or a chance with a d6 non-standard task resolution mechanic (pg 234).

I like this quite a bit. Using the questions to drive character development. Good stuff!


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

7/17/2018 7:00 pm  #13


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Using Attribute-Based roles as the sole determinant of success or failure of a puzzle is a bit simplistic for my tastes.  However, player knowledge and ingenuity can threaten to make their character's attributes less of a value of how the character actually is in game play.  Not all of us are experienced enough actors or role-players to play down to an attribute below the gifts they naturally possess, and it is a feat in and of itself to play up to an attribute beyond the player's capacity.  Very few of us can make the type of connections and leaps of brilliance that would come from a character with a mental attribute at the highest ends of the scale.  Having a scaled chance can reflect that even is one, as a player, doesn't have the persona that can inspire legions, or charm the coldest heart, their Bard with an 18 CHA does, and there is a "chance in six" that reflects that ability.  For those attempts that fall far beyond mortal ken, The extraordinary Feat % provides a very handy gauge of what a high ability score means.

This, of course doesn't and shouldn't preclude good roleplaying and good game mastering.   The goal is to have fun, feel awesome, and overcome challenges.  The less often the dice are needed as a randomizer helps to maintain immersion.  Still, with the Physical Attributes it is, correctly I might add, considered impractical to measure a character's success or failure based on the player's ability.

I'm not arguing that the RAW be changed, the game is lovely as it stands. 

I've been gaming long enough to recognize in some of the responses to this thread, the echoes of bad experiences.  Games and nights where less experienced players or GMs have allowed the dice to dictate rather than inspire the action of the adventure.  I may have rambled too long, but I'll finish by saying Thank You to everyone for your responses and Insights, they are indeed much appreciated.


Behold! The Wizard.
Beware his powers!
UNSPEAKABLE POWERS!
     Thread Starter
 

7/17/2018 8:41 pm  #14


Re: Test of Int, Wis, or Charisma, Extraordinary Feat of Same

Well said, SuperPheemy. 


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

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