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5/24/2018 11:00 am  #1


Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Could a Dispel Magic spell be held to dispel a Fireball Spell, assuming the character dispelling won initiative?

 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
 

5/24/2018 1:15 pm  #2


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Jeff would have to give you an "official" answer for AS&SH, but personally I would allow it.

It's pretty clear from some of the statements in the DMG that Gary envisioned counter-spelling being possible within a round.

ETA: But I wouldn't allow the dispel magic to be "held"; it would have to be specifically committed as a counter-spell, and used whether the fireball went off or not.

Last edited by Blackadder23 (5/24/2018 1:17 pm)


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

5/24/2018 1:49 pm  #3


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

We don't specifically get into counter-spells in AS&SH, but I would allow it as BA23 suggests. Say the party encountered a group of 4 snake-men, and combat ensued. As the referee, I might say that 3 are advancing with spears, and the fourth begins speaking an incantation. When I ask the players what their characters are doing (action declaration), a sorcerer-type might say he or she is going to cast dispel magic on the snake-man caster. Then initiative is determined. If the players win, the dispel magic spell might disrupt the snake-man's spell. If the snake-men win initiative, the snake-man casts first, but depending on the circumstances, I still might allow the dispel magic to negate the effect of the spell. In the case of a fireball? Too late. It detonates. In the case of a charm person spell cast at a comrade? Sure, why not. 


Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea - A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Fantasy
 

5/24/2018 6:41 pm  #4


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Thanks to both of you! Very reasonable.


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
     Thread Starter
 

5/25/2018 12:07 am  #5


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Ghul wrote:

 If the snake-men win initiative, the snake-man casts first, but depending on the circumstances, I still might allow the dispel magic to negate the effect of the spell. 

Please elaborate...do you mean if the snake-man casts some type of creeper spell - like Cloudkill???

I would think Charm Person might still be initiative dependent.
 

Last edited by Iron Ranger (5/25/2018 12:09 am)


3d6 straight.
 

5/25/2018 5:05 am  #6


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

I'm talking about spells that have a duration greater than instantaneous. Of course, range applies. We're assuming the target of the charm is within the AoE of dispel magic


Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea - A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Fantasy
 

5/25/2018 6:36 am  #7


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Iron Ranger wrote:

Ghul wrote:

 If the snake-men win initiative, the snake-man casts first, but depending on the circumstances, I still might allow the dispel magic to negate the effect of the spell. 

Please elaborate...do you mean if the snake-man casts some type of creeper spell - like Cloudkill???

I would think Charm Person might still be initiative dependent.
 

The Charm is cast first and the character gets charmed.  The dispel then removes the effect if within the area of effect.  The spell is instantaneous but the magical effects linger and may be dispelled.
 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
     Thread Starter
 

5/25/2018 6:41 am  #8


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Ghul wrote:

I'm talking about spells that have a duration greater than instantaneous. Of course, range applies. We're assuming the target of the charm is within the AoE of dispel magic

In re-reading the spell Dispel is instantaneous and probably could never disrupt a spell, only counter the lingering effects.  If Dispel wins initiative the effects are gone once cast then the enemy spell is cast and the effects applied. In reverse the enemy spell is cast and effects applied then Dispel can remove lingering effects.  I don't see a dispel of an instant attack spell being possible?
 


“How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?” 
     Thread Starter
 

5/25/2018 8:50 am  #9


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

mabon5127 wrote:

Ghul wrote:

I'm talking about spells that have a duration greater than instantaneous. Of course, range applies. We're assuming the target of the charm is within the AoE of dispel magic

In re-reading the spell Dispel is instantaneous and probably could never disrupt a spell, only counter the lingering effects.  If Dispel wins initiative the effects are gone once cast then the enemy spell is cast and the effects applied. In reverse the enemy spell is cast and effects applied then Dispel can remove lingering effects.  I don't see a dispel of an instant attack spell being possible?
 

I would still allow it because it's possible in AD&D (something which I found was actually spelled out in the PHB when I doublechecked the dispel magic description). When I encounter a weird edge case, I tend to look to Gary's intent (except when I disagree with him, of course).

Anyway, I think the idea of dueling sorcerers cancelling out each other's spells is cool. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

5/25/2018 12:23 pm  #10


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

mabon5127 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

Ghul wrote:

 If the snake-men win initiative, the snake-man casts first, but depending on the circumstances, I still might allow the dispel magic to negate the effect of the spell. 

Please elaborate...do you mean if the snake-man casts some type of creeper spell - like Cloudkill???

I would think Charm Person might still be initiative dependent.
 

The Charm is cast first and the character gets charmed.  The dispel then removes the effect if within the area of effect.  The spell is instantaneous but the magical effects linger and may be dispelled.
 

Exactly how I was thinking. And further - if the Charmed Person has early initiative than the second MU and disrupts the casting of Dispel Magic, then all the declared intent is out the window. I just don't see how Gary, Ghul, or BA23 might still allow....


3d6 straight.
 

5/25/2018 1:40 pm  #11


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Iron Ranger wrote:

mabon5127 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

Please elaborate...do you mean if the snake-man casts some type of creeper spell - like Cloudkill???

I would think Charm Person might still be initiative dependent.
 

The Charm is cast first and the character gets charmed.  The dispel then removes the effect if within the area of effect.  The spell is instantaneous but the magical effects linger and may be dispelled.
 

Exactly how I was thinking. And further - if the Charmed Person has early initiative than the second MU and disrupts the casting of Dispel Magic, then all the declared intent is out the window. I just don't see how Gary, Ghul, or BA23 might still allow....

It would work provided the target of the charm was a third party. If the target was the other MU, I agree that charm person would spoil the dispel magic spell if cast first and the target failed his save. Also, any damaging spell that caught the second MU within its radius and inflicted damage would spoil the dispel magic (as usual).

Last edited by Blackadder23 (5/25/2018 1:45 pm)


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

5/25/2018 3:45 pm  #12


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Blackadder23 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

mabon5127 wrote:


The Charm is cast first and the character gets charmed.  The dispel then removes the effect if within the area of effect.  The spell is instantaneous but the magical effects linger and may be dispelled.
 

Exactly how I was thinking. And further - if the Charmed Person has early initiative than the second MU and disrupts the casting of Dispel Magic, then all the declared intent is out the window. I just don't see how Gary, Ghul, or BA23 might still allow....

It would work provided the target of the charm was a third party. If the target was the other MU, I agree that charm person would spoil the dispel magic spell if cast first and the target failed his save. Also, any damaging spell that caught the second MU within its radius and inflicted damage would spoil the dispel magic (as usual).

Yes, I was assuming a third party. If it's Snake Man vs Magic Man then all bets are off.

But if this Snake Man's Charm Person is cast at the Magic Man, who - failing initiative, but committed to cast Dispel Magic -  is busy thinking of the right words in the right order until his turn....isn't this Magic Man too distracted to get a Saving throw without busting up his groove? 
 


3d6 straight.
 

5/25/2018 5:21 pm  #13


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Iron Ranger wrote:

Blackadder23 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

Exactly how I was thinking. And further - if the Charmed Person has early initiative than the second MU and disrupts the casting of Dispel Magic, then all the declared intent is out the window. I just don't see how Gary, Ghul, or BA23 might still allow....

It would work provided the target of the charm was a third party. If the target was the other MU, I agree that charm person would spoil the dispel magic spell if cast first and the target failed his save. Also, any damaging spell that caught the second MU within its radius and inflicted damage would spoil the dispel magic (as usual).

Yes, I was assuming a third party. If it's Snake Man vs Magic Man then all bets are off.

But if this Snake Man's Charm Person is cast at the Magic Man, who - failing initiative, but committed to cast Dispel Magic -  is busy thinking of the right words in the right order until his turn....isn't this Magic Man too distracted to get a Saving throw without busting up his groove? 
 

I have to admit I'm a bit confused about what you're arguing. If the charm person target is a third party (i.e., neither caster), then surely none of the rest of this matters? Maybe the problem is on my end... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

As far as a casting sorcerer getting a save vs. charm person goes, to the best of my knowledge, nothing in AD&D or AS&SH says a spellcaster doesn't get normal saving throws while casting (I guess he wouldn't get any DEX bonuses toward certain spells). Not saying that a DM couldn't decide to impose such penalties, just that it isn't usual. I would probably feel it was piling on, myself. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

I think a simpler way to look at counter-spelling might be to look at what the AD&D description says: "It will destroy magic potions (they are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell), remove spells cast upon persons or objects, or counter the casting of spells in the area of effect." Extrapolating from this, I would allow dispel magic to (potentially) stop all spell-casting within its area of effect, for the duration of the round, if the caster won initiative. If the caster lost initiative, it would no longer really be a counter-spell; it would just (potentially) remove existing effects as usual.


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

5/25/2018 8:45 pm  #14


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Blackadder23 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

Blackadder23 wrote:


It would work provided the target of the charm was a third party. If the target was the other MU, I agree that charm person would spoil the dispel magic spell if cast first and the target failed his save. Also, any damaging spell that caught the second MU within its radius and inflicted damage would spoil the dispel magic (as usual).

Yes, I was assuming a third party. If it's Snake Man vs Magic Man then all bets are off.

But if this Snake Man's Charm Person is cast at the Magic Man, who - failing initiative, but committed to cast Dispel Magic -  is busy thinking of the right words in the right order until his turn....isn't this Magic Man too distracted to get a Saving throw without busting up his groove? 
 

I have to admit I'm a bit confused about what you're arguing. If the charm person target is a third party (i.e., neither caster), then surely none of the rest of this matters? Maybe the problem is on my end... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

As far as a casting sorcerer getting a save vs. charm person goes, to the best of my knowledge, nothing in AD&D or AS&SH says a spellcaster doesn't get normal saving throws while casting (I guess he wouldn't get any DEX bonuses toward certain spells). Not saying that a DM couldn't decide to impose such penalties, just that it isn't usual. I would probably feel it was piling on, myself. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

I think a simpler way to look at counter-spelling might be to look at what the AD&D description says: "It will destroy magic potions (they are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell), remove spells cast upon persons or objects, or counter the casting of spells in the area of effect." Extrapolating from this, I would allow dispel magic to (potentially) stop all spell-casting within its area of effect, for the duration of the round, if the caster won initiative. If the caster lost initiative, it would no longer really be a counter-spell; it would just (potentially) remove existing effects as usual.

Not arguing - I think you and I see this exactly the same. I'm just still trying to figure out a scenario when Ghul, as mentioned in his previous example, might still allow for the Dispel Magic to disrupt the Snake Man's spell...and...how he might still allow Dispel Magic to disrupt even after losing initiative. 

I realize that You would not, nor would I. And I realize that the situation has morphed far from original question. But I just can't yet wrap my mind around what Jeff is suggesting. I'll keep chewing on it over the long weekend ;).


3d6 straight.
 

5/25/2018 8:47 pm  #15


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

This is the kind of thing that sneaks into my campaign when I least expect it - and I don't wanna get caught with my britches down...


3d6 straight.
 

5/25/2018 9:32 pm  #16


Re: Dispel Magic vs Instant Attack spells

Dispel magic can dispel a magical effect. If that effect is instantaneous, and occurs before the dispel magic is cast, then it is too late to dispel. If the effect has a duration, dispel magic can undo the magical effect. 


Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea - A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Fantasy
 

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