I would be opposed to it myself. The players are supposed to be supplying the brains and common sense for their characters. In my opinion, it's a cop-out for players to ask for a roll instead of actually solving the puzzle themselves.

As to why the tests weren't included in the rules, you'd have to ask Jeff. I'd be surprised if his reasoning weren't similar to what I just stated.

Blackadder23 wrote:

I would be opposed to it myself. The players are supposed to be supplying the brains and common sense for their characters. In my opinion, it's a cop-out for players to ask for a roll instead of actually solving the puzzle themselves.

As to why the tests weren't included in the rules, you'd have to ask Jeff. I'd be surprised if his reasoning weren't similar to what I just stated.

I think you are correct as to the reasoning. I agree to an extent.  I would like to see the same rolls for the mental attributes. 

I would not let a character try to get around a puzzle or quandary simply by making an intelligence roll. But to know things a super genius wizard may know by making an int roll or notice things like a wise priest, or embolden troops like a charismatic paladin that might be cool.

Could they bypass the hard player decisions by making a character roll? Nah.
 

Blackadder23 wrote:

Inspiring troops (and really anything that falls under the rubric of charisma) is already covered by the reaction roll, in my opinion.

If someone is playing a super genius wizard and wants to know something that a super genius wizard would know, I tell him. No roll needed.

Yup I generally tell them as well.  There seems to be as many uses of the rolls for mental characteristics as physical IMO.  I know I know its my campaign do what you want but.....

As a GM I may want to move forward the action by allowing things to go right.  The boulder is moved, the lore remembered, the troops are rallied.  Sometimes that part of the dungeon is not finished and so the boulder is beyond lifting, the memory confused, the troops need a rest!  Most of the time, in the middle, lies uncertainty.  The roll brings a heightened tension and danger and frankly keeps me on my toes as even I the GM must react to the dice gods!  

I don't want to leave out those opportunities for the mental attributes. 

As the 2nd Ed is published the discussion is academic but fun none the less!

 

Blackadder23 wrote:

I certainly appreciate the value of situations where not even the DM knows the outcome. When I want one of those situations with respect to information, I say "You have a 25% (or 50%, or whatever) chance of knowing that." Or I might even roll d% myself to find the chance. If instead the number appears on a character sheet as an official mechanic, it becomes an entitlement. And a "Get Out of Using Your Brain Free" card, to my mind, is a very bad entitlement.
That's why I support Jeff's decision to omit this type of thing from the game entirely. What anyone wants to do at their own table is, of course, their own concern.

Because I value your wisdom in these matters.... If the mechanic provides entitlement for information could the same be said for physical things.  The character could claim they could lift a twelve ton boulder because they have a number on their sheet.  The impossible is still impossible.  Information is a bit harder to say "you can't know that" but there are still new things to learn and discover. Information is imperfect and untrue rumors abound.

Regardless, I agree with you using a roll to replace role is not the point of the exercise. If that were the case then you could just roll a d6 and on a 1-3 hand out xp and treasure.

Thanks for the discussion.

Ghul wrote:

For reasons well-articulated above, I omitted mental tests and feats so as to prevent the solving of problems or the piecing together of puzzles through a roll. Oftentimes I will simply do as BA23 mentioned, above: I'll simply tell the player if his character knows about some piece of information, or not. Once in a while, however, I may allow for a random d6 resolution roll. In an ancient mound where a Hyperborean king of old was interred, my player of a Hyperborean purloiner may ask me, "Have I ever heard of this guy in here?" I might then ask his level, his intelligence, and his wisdom, and give him a chance-in-six to know some piece of information, be it important or trivial. 

And this is where I lean heavily on the Non-Standard Tasks roll, too: it's basically the Swiss-Army-Knife of subsystems which allows the DM and Player to role-play through the scene and then the DM judiciously weighs the odds and comes up with a throw, if needed. I'd not allow an Int/Wis/Cha roll like the physical stats to ever "solve" a puzzle.

Jimm.Iblis wrote:

Beyond that ... I fish for character development through sudden remembrances and insight. If a player asks a question, its a signal to me that they are interested in the answer so I don't want to shut it down right away. I might get a hook out of it, too! I'll ask, "how might your character know?" and if the reason is plausible, then they get the truth or a chance with a d6 non-standard task resolution mechanic (pg 234).

I like this quite a bit. Using the questions to drive character development. Good stuff!

Well said, SuperPheemy.