achiriaco wrote:

Chainsaw wrote:

Referees should do whatever they think makes sense based on their own experience, the experience of their players and the situation, in my opinion. Based on what the OP wrote, I'd personally go with pregens, but I can see how others wouldn't. I apologize if it seemed that I was giving some sort of universal rule on the matter because of my own preferences.

No need to apologize Chainsaw. OP was looking for help on player aids for creation. Not sure why this morphed into pre-gen convo?

I think when there wasn't a readily available "Player introduction package," I offered an alternative that had worked well for me in a convention setting. /shrug

No big deal! 

Iron Ranger wrote:

Not sure where it lives in the 2nd edition hardback, but the races description list on pg 14 and the classes description list on pg 27 of the 1st edition book basically tell a player all they need to know.

Page 100-111 has Races, Physique, Alignment and Background (which includes Religion).

mabon5127 wrote:

Chainsaw wrote:

If you're playing with a group that you expect to become regulars, then sure, spend some time rolling up the PCs. I agree - that is super fun! What was described in the OP sounded more like a demonstration to me, so I leaned toward getting to the action more quickly in that case.

I've never considered doing a char gen at a con or a demo. As a player I inwardly groan if char gen is required at a con game. I would much rather pick and go. That being said maybe I'm in the minority. I never considered that some players would connect better with their own creation. It may be worth trying.

One of my great friends and an amazing referee, austinjimm, always insists on players rolling up PCs in his convention games, but he also runs OD&D, which has fewer options, and has a one pager that walks step by step through the process. It takes all of five minutes, even at high-levels.

What I found challenging with rolling up PCs in my AS&SH convention game was that people spent a long time doing it (even with some help), longer than I expected or had planned on. So, I think it just depends on setting expectations (in the event description) and building in time to do it (assume 30 minutes minimum). Maybe it's worth trying again, now that I've run more games and have a better sense of how to make a one-pager to help speed things up. Mostly people are spending time comparing options (classes vs stats, spells, weapons, armor, etc) and asking where to find things to help make those decisions.

Iron Ranger wrote:

mabon5127 wrote:

Chainsaw wrote:

If you're playing with a group that you expect to become regulars, then sure, spend some time rolling up the PCs. I agree - that is super fun! What was described in the OP sounded more like a demonstration to me, so I leaned toward getting to the action more quickly in that case.

I've never considered doing a char gen at a con or a demo. As a player I inwardly groan if char gen is required at a con game. I would much rather pick and go. That being said maybe I'm in the minority. I never considered that some players would connect better with their own creation. It may be worth trying.

I really appreciate that you guys are giving it a second think...

I've been playing in Mike Mornard's Magic users with knives campaign at gary con for years. I loved that character I rolled up the first time and brought it back every year. (sadly, death @ GCX)  I'm not the only one at the table doing this.

Agreed! I have fond memories of some PCs I rolled up in austijimm's games (and in Mythmere's games too).

We did "half-gens" in my Foolsgrave living dungeon in 2017, where the players chose a sheet that already had the class of their choice (and stats, saves, etc), but spent a few minutes rolling money and personalizing equipment (and spells). People seemed to enjoy it and the "choose a class" method seemed to cut out the most time-consuming piece of the process (the inclination to optimize attributes against 20 classes they didn't necessarily know well) while still providing a high-degree of customization (choosing class, gear, name, etc).

Oh yeah, each half-gen also came with a one-page summary from the book on all the class's special abilities, so people didn't need to waste time tranferring, say, all the beserker abilities from the PM to their sheet.

My stat rolling method of choice (and what I want to introduce in my game is) 4d6, drop lowest, down the line, swap 1 score if that will let you qualify for a specific class. Most players I play with have only done point buy and or stat array and part of what I want to introduce (together with the other old school elements of AS&SH) is the departure of character builds. Roll and interpret what you rolled; have scores in places because you roliled them, not because you chose them or dumped that stat. I want that character creation part of the game.

I know from experience how a character creation session can be tedious when we share one copy of the book (I'm sure there will be more if the campaign takes off). Also in the case of someone needing to make a new character mid-session being able to do the basics by themselves and fill in the details at the end (especially when I use my copy to run the game)

I'll create what I had in mind and post it here so you'll know what I wanted when I started the thread (not to say that there wasn't a lot of helpful info from all of you)

ArjenL wrote:

My. Roll and interpret what you rolled; have scores in places because you roliled them, not because you chose them or dumped that stat. 

YES! This is why I love 3d6 straight!
 

Brock Savage wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

We'll just have to disagree on this...
I just can't fully connect with a pre-gen  ---  It's like choosing Green for a game of Sorry.

My apologies, I was being unclear. If a player wants to make a character- awesome! I pretty much expect it from veteran players. I was trying to make a point that I handle character creation it was poorly stated.

I guess I should clarify why my tabletop time is so precious. I run a game once a month and every session, I am under the gun to deliver a complete adventure in 4-6 hours with pacing that's roughly equivalent to say, Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Mummy. To that end, anything related to character creation, buying stuff, hiring henchmen, downtime, bookkeeping, etc is resolved online in between games.   

Brock, I totally get it! I'm just super duper spoiled with 2 games a week. And I've gotten very greedy with playing out all that downtime stuff.

mabon5127 wrote:

Iron Ranger wrote:

Brock Savage wrote:

My apologies, I was being unclear. If a player wants to make a character- awesome! I pretty much expect it from veteran players. I was trying to make a point that I handle character creation it was poorly stated.

I guess I should clarify why my tabletop time is so precious. I run a game once a month and every session, I am under the gun to deliver a complete adventure in 4-6 hours with pacing that's roughly equivalent to say, Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Mummy. To that end, anything related to character creation, buying stuff, hiring henchmen, downtime, bookkeeping, etc is resolved online in between games.   

Brock, I totally get it! I'm just super duper spoiled with 2 games a week. And I've gotten very greedy with playing out all that downtime stuff.

Do you run both or get to play in one?  I have players ask some questions between sessions if the answer  involves a long discussion or if it something the player wishes to keep character confidential.  I like the social aspects of playing out some mundane things it offers some comic relief in an otherwise very serious game environment.

I run one and play in the other. I take players aside for super secret stuff, keeps the table intrigue high. Other DM does the same.

We love the social gatherings as much as the games. We can spend half the night recalculating Encumbrance around the table. Or stopping the game down to look up a rule. Or rolling up a new character(s). Everybody's cool and into it. We have the same great fun time. It's all Playing the game to us. 
 

Ahhh, I see. Kind of a handy quick overview of the classes. I can see how this helps address the excess time people can spend choosing their class. In my convention game where we rolled from scratch, I handed out PMs and people spent lots of time browsing the classes, probably reading way more detail about each one than they needed. It took forever, hehe. I may try your method next March. Thanks for sharing!

 I am definitely a pre-gen guy but if I were to try a char gen at a game I think I would leave mechanics out completely from the decision making process.  Play a character based on the coolness of the name and description.  Choosing between 30 classes based on abilities and chances of success at various levels with a new rpg'er would be scary for them and me!!

From experience I have encountered players that love mechanics and would be shut down for an hour given the number of variable to sort through.

Let them pick by what sounds cool roll stats (adjust to minimums), pick a name, buy some stuff, go reaving.

 

There is a great article on player introductions that is part of a series on campaign organization at Welsh Piper : "Writing Your Player's Guide"
Admittedly the info is for home campaigns, but as I've forced myself to learn, less is more. Creating a player's guide and trying to stick to the player's perspectives has been a necessary exercise in restraint.