HYPERBOREA / Making daggers good?

**Posted by Grimmshade** 1/24/2018 9:37 am

I can't remember if I have brought this up here before.

The Assassin in my PC party is used to playing Thief types in 4th edition, 13th Age, Savage Worlds, and 2d20 Conan. In all of those games everyone has some sort of outstanding combat proficiency. One of the things I love about old school Class/Level games is that everyone isn't built around combat.
The problem I'm running into is the Assassin feels like since daggers are her weapons of choice, there should be some way to be more proficient at them (in essence, to get more damage out of them than a d4). This is certainly what backstab and assassinate are for, however I do understand her point that you are still better off using a sword for those actions.

To me its not an issue. It makes the character play different, as they should. I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard this complaint or has a PC who still uses daggers as weapons even though they have no advantage. (I remember this coming up back in the 70's/80's when playing D&D as well.)

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/24/2018 10:19 am

She could use a short sword and call it a dirk or something. Of course, then she couldn't throw it, but you can't have everything.
It's your game, but I really think there's a limit on how much players should be indulged in this way. They always want to eat their cake and have it too. If they want to have a weapon that does more damage than a dagger, they should select a different weapon. If they want to improve their weapon damage with level, they should play a fighter class. If they insist on playing a non-fighter and using daggers, they should be prepared to accept the consequences of their choices. At least that's how I see it.

Last edited by Blackadder23 (1/24/2018 10:22 am)

**Posted by Grimmshade** 1/24/2018 10:57 am

BA23 - I'm in total agreement with you. I don't think Thieves and Assassins should be able to go straight up vs Fighters. Otherwise why play a Fighter class? A lot of modern games have this "eat it too" attitude, and I think it's spoiled specialized characters a bit.
I think maybe the solution is occasionally pointing out the cool things she can do that others can't, and if that doesn't help offering a different Class.

**Posted by rhialto** 1/24/2018 11:20 am

Daggers are good: when wielded by a Fighter who is a Grand Master of them.

In all seriousness, I agree with BA23's point about the class distinctions: assassins aren't going to be as good at straight-up dagger-wielding as a fighter, period. Slipping one into someone's vitals when they're caught unaware, absolutely.

**Posted by gizmomathboy** 1/24/2018 12:09 pm

Yeah, there are reasons why the classes and such are the way they are.

Also, the downside is that NPCs will also have at least the same advantages you give the players. Not sure if players realize that.

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 1/24/2018 12:26 pm

Daggers are also easy to conceal and don't weigh you down--possibly important for an assassin. Plus, you can carry a few of them.

**Posted by Grimmshade** 1/24/2018 1:52 pm

Great points all!

I was just thinking about the point Handy just made. The Assassin can carry a lot of daggers and not get weighed down. Plus, I would definitely allow her to have one or two sewn into clothing, etc., for concealing.

**Posted by BlackKnight** 1/24/2018 2:12 pm

A character that could use daggers good enough to stand toe to toe with a fighter, would be a fighter, if they want to be an assasin, then they need to play like an assasin, and no assasin would EVER try to stand toe to toe with a fighter.

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/24/2018 2:53 pm

Assassins and witches are the only classes I allow to easily obtain poison (although they still have to pay for it or - the case of the witch - possibly brew it). If the assassin put even weak poison on her dagger, that would go a long way toward evening the odds, while still being class (and genre) appropriate. Of course, she would have to pay for the poison, and renew it on the blade regularly... because you can't have everything.

**Posted by BlackKnight** 1/24/2018 3:01 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
Of course, she would have to pay for the poison, and renew it on the blade regularly... because you can't have everything.

Not to mention the care that must be taken while using it...

**Posted by Handy Haversack** 1/24/2018 3:28 pm

BlackKnight wrote:
Blackadder23 wrote:
Of course, she would have to pay for the poison, and renew it on the blade regularly... because you can't have everything.
Not to mention the care that must be taken while using it...

And the insurance premiums . . .

**Posted by Grimmshade** 1/24/2018 4:19 pm

Good Idea BA23. I've doled out some poisons in treasure already, but maybe I need to remind her that she can use some of that loot pile to buy more.

**Posted by DMPrata** 1/24/2018 7:41 pm

If you’re using the optional advanced combat actions, your assassin has a couple of viable options. With superior DX, two-weapon fighting with a pair of daggers grants an extra attack at a minimal penalty. Even without high DX, a second dagger can be used for an off-hand parry, granting a +1 AC bonus versus melee attacks.

**Posted by Grimmshade** 1/24/2018 7:49 pm

Great options DMPrata. We are just starting to add more of the Advanced techniques, so I'll be sure to point those out.