Exactly! The ideas were either grabbed from pastiche, other non-Conan Sword & Sorcery, or a misreading of the Conan stories. They may have also been an attempt to make magic rarer in a Conan campaign, but honestly that's all up to the GM anyway. Also, magic is nowhere near as rare in the Hyborian Age as most people seem to think.

Xaltotun had glowing eyes, but he was also sort of a lich, or at least a wizard from an ancient race revived from the dead. Akivasha had glowing eyes, was a vampire. The Black Seers of Yimsha have tentacles for arms, but they also were never men.
The master says:
" I am of human origin, but I rule demons. You have seen the Lords of the Black Circle – it would blast your soul to hear from what far realm I summoned them and from what doom I guard them with ensorcelled crystal and golden serpents"

I saw an argument in which someone said that to properly make Hyborian Age magic in a game system you would need a different magic system for each wizard. While I understand what they were getting at (Howard didn't need to write his wizards into game mechanics), I think this is a good argument for an RPG with a Class system. Class combined with the fact that most AD&D/AS&SH spells are open to interpretation and tweaking provides pretty fertile ground for variance in sorcerers.

Last edited by Grimmshade (10/05/2017 4:58 pm)

Mabon - Most S&S game mechanics for sorcery are so destructive that it doesn't make sense why anyone would ever choose that path.
I also agree that some amount of Call of Cthulhu type sanity loss would be fine, even in Hyborian Age magic. But rather than being a specific cost of sorcery, it should come from actually interacting with those beings.

mabon5127 wrote:

Grimmshade wrote:

Mabon - Most S&S game mechanics for sorcery are so destructive that it doesn't make sense why anyone would ever choose that path.
I also agree that some amount of Call of Cthulhu type sanity loss would be fine, even in Hyborian Age magic. But rather than being a specific cost of sorcery, it should come from actually interacting with those beings.

I would agree.  This is why I believe a system is not needed rather make this part of the role-playing experience.

 

Well, WRT CoC-esque costs: it's in the CoC system (and mythos lore) to lose sanity simply by reading blasphemous tomes. Whether CoC is considered "S&S" is a different argument, but I think the reasoning behind the CoC system is quite sound. 

Very much enjoying your read-through, though. So far it seems the aspects of S&S "sorcery" in REH consist of:
*Sorcerers have a "dreadful presence", able to inspire fear in all who see them or hear their name
*Knowledge and use of the properties of alchemical contrivances and substances
*Knowledge and coercion of otherworldly beings
*Knowledge and use of sorcery itself (though the number of "spells" cited so far is small)

The last three are adequately captured in AS&SH now, but it's the first that I think would add nice flavor: perhaps non-sorcerers would need to make a Saving Throw while in the mere presence of a sorcerer? What the effects of failing such a ST are would be interesting to develop...

As I did my morning walk with my dog I thought more on this, and since I usually favor re-using existing mechanics (rather than introducing new mechanics), perhaps a modifier on the Reaction Table, to emulate "dreadful presence"? Mods could be Casting Ability-dependent, and negative with non-sorcerers, positive for sorcerers.

Caveman wrote:

Concerning Corruption:

I use the Mongoose D20 Conan RPG; and truthfully I did enjoy  most of the spells they developed, but I do agree Grimshade that sometimes it can be slightly different from Howard's work.

Howard treated alchemy and poisons as tools of sorcerers also (but you know that)....

But real reason for post is corruption: the D20 Conan had a ridiculous corruption time scale, the chart and effects were good enough, for how are we to know the extent of the sorcerers that failed and became corrupted and possessed by daemons!

But the chart was near 1 corruption point for each time one encounters a daemon and interacts with it in a sociable way! After 10 points, their growing horns and stooping and their flesh becomes hard as scales, etc., after 11 points (abouts), they are possessed by daemon and the GM takes control of character!

Possible if chart was in 100s and I believe 1,000s, and a sorcerer gains 1 corruption each time he converses with a daemon is fine (if he fails a Sorcery roll, perhaps), but at least before the corruption ruins the sorcerer; there is still 999 points to go!?

Not to belabor the point, but (time scale aside) none of the sorcerers in Howard's works have flesh as hard as scales or horns. Nor are there any "failed" sorcerers running around with flesh as hard as scales or horns. So I really have to ask again: in what way is this suitable for a Conan rpg?

I don't have anything against people using their imagination, and I would theoretically not object to such a system in a "generic" sword and sorcery rpg (well, I probably would, since I think it unfairly penalizes people who play sorcerers, but let's say I wouldn't for the sake of argument). However, when you're purportedly recreating a literary work for a game, I think you have some responsibility not to create major systems that are at odds with what's portrayed in that literary work. These supposed Conan rpg's that include outlandish physical corruption systems for sorcerers are, in my view, tantamount to a "Three Musketeers" rpg that includes rules for automatic weapons fire. Imaginative, yes. True to the source material, no.

Grimmshade wrote:

Maybe a Reaction modifier equal to level divided by a certain amount.

People definitely fear sorcerers in the Hyborian Age, but in AS&SH terms I wonder if you couldn't boil that down to use of the Fear spell and reputation. 

You almost need a reputation system. I think that the original TSR Conan modules had such a system, I'll have to check.

Well, I wouldn't want to track another stat (reputation), but just use the CA (which doesn't always track with level) to modify Reaction rolls: say +/-1 up to CA 6, +/-2 at CA 7+. A lightweight, easily house-ruled representation of their "reputation as a fearsome sorcerer".

I not really interested in human sorcerers becoming daemons myself or possessed by them, but the theory is that... "do some sell their souls for power!" In which case corruption is a constant threat, I not saying the end result is horns, my theory was trying to get the concept that the threat exists. (Note: Pelius, though a little eccentric, does not sell his soul for power, so hence not every sorcerer is completely affected, it is only social interaction with daemons, not commanding them that causes corruption in D20).

Example: a Sorcerer lives and dies, 100 years or a 1,000 if he can, but at end he has 678 corruption points with some effects, a twitch; can cast spells at greater potency, but is gradually losing his soul, whatever the cause and affects are, have a system for it. He never gets to the stage with the complete corruption for he would have to live another 1,000 years more (but, the threat exists).

Two sorcerers, Tsotha-lanti and the Master of Yimsha had strange side effects, was this a spell or daemonic corruption? Tsotha-lanti was decapitated and Pelias in the form of a giant eagle swoops down and flies away with his head and his body gets up off the ground and follows his head, hmm, personally if things like that can happen, one must make assumptions that Howard had yet to do other stories that would include a sorcerer being corrupted so much that they contorted inside. When the Devi Yasmina awaken and sees (is it the true self/form or just a spell to frighten her) the Master of Yimsha, he is like a lich, if I getting it right, could this not be a form of corruption that wastes the body or is he in fact just a lich and hence why he lives so long. To me the possibilities are to attempt to presume what else is out there in Thuria, or one could never fill a RPG book will the little amount in Howard's Conan stories.

Last edited by Caveman (10/08/2017 6:15 am)

I think of Tsotha-lanti and the Master of Yimsha as having achieved something they consider beneficial through sorcery. Neither appeared negatively corrupted, so much as having found a way to prolong their lives.
(Also, Tsotha-lanti was half demon)

I'm not saying that a wizard could not be corrupted by something evil in Conan's world, but I don't think it should be a regular side effect of magic use.

Last edited by Grimmshade (10/08/2017 8:25 am)

Chainsaw - Cool idea! And an equally good reason not to use it.