HYPERBOREA / 0th level characters

**Posted by Yora** 4/06/2014 8:29 am

This is something that doesn't seem to be quite explained in the rules, and doesn't seem to be directly copied from AD&D either.

For the followers of fighters and thieves, it says that 0th level fighters have 1d8 hit points, and that 0th level thieves have 1d4 hit points and some thief skills.

FA, CA, and TA would likely be 0, so no spellcasting and turning undead for 0th level magicians and clerics. And if hp for fighters changes from 1d10 to 1d8, and for thieves from 1d6 to 1d4, it would probably be 1d6 hp for clerics and 1d3 hp for magicians. Right?

What else do 0th level characters get or not get?
- All allowed armor and favored weapons?
- +2 bonus to saving throws?
- Weapon Mastery with two weapons for fighters?
- Read Magic for magicians?
- +1 unarmored AC bonus, backstab, Cant, detecting secret doors for thieves?

**Posted by Crisippo** 4/06/2014 12:22 pm

I'm sure someone else will be able give you a more substantial answer, but i always figured zero-level figthers to be just 1HD humans and then having 1d8 hit points as per the regular hit dice rules. Others classes are reduced to 1/2HD humans and has 1d4 hit points.

I would allow armor and favored weapons and maybe a saving throw bonus and some thief abilities, but none of the other abilities.

Another thing is that i like the rules sort of vague on this stuff. Zero-level characters are usually NPCs and i want to surprise my players with what NPC's can accomplish.

Last edited by Crisippo (4/06/2014 2:08 pm)

**Posted by Yora** 4/06/2014 1:09 pm

Vague is good for people who have played AD&D for 20 or 30 years and already have their own rules they've been using forever. For new GMs it's not at all helpful for the books to tell you to do something whithout explaining what it is.

**Posted by NAJones** 4/06/2014 2:07 pm

What exactly do you need defined? Not to dismiss your concerns about the lack of clarity, but these zero level followers aren't going to interface mechanically with the game much, unless they are directly involved in combat or they are given an order to perform some task that requires a special skill.

I wouldn't consider these 0-level types to have a true class nor any special class skills. When I see "0th-level fighter" it's more about describing the kinds of equipment they'd be able to use without stabbing themselves in the foot or tripping and falling.

**Posted by Yora** 4/06/2014 2:15 pm

Do 0th level clerics get 1d6 hp and magicians 1d3 hp?
Do they get those +2 bonuses to saving throws?
Do 0th level fighter get weapon mastery?
Do 0th level thieves get backstab and +1 to unarmored AC?
Do 0th level magicians get a familiar and Read Magic?

**Posted by Blackadder23** 4/06/2014 2:40 pm

Yora wrote:
For new GMs it's not at all helpful for the books to tell you to do something whithout explaining what it is.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. How else will new GMs learn to make those kind of decisions?

**Posted by NAJones** 4/06/2014 5:30 pm

Yora wrote:
Do 0th level clerics get 1d6 hp and magicians 1d3 hp?
Do they get those +2 bonuses to saving throws?
Do 0th level fighter get weapon mastery?
Do 0th level thieves get backstab and +1 to unarmored AC?
Do 0th level magicians get a familiar and Read Magic?

Do you want zero level characters to have those abilities? If yes, then "yes." If no, then "no."

**Posted by Ghul** 4/07/2014 5:42 am

Actually, if you look at what I did in the AFS issue with the purloiner class, you'll see that what I did was give the 0th level thief a smattering of the thief skills. Yes FA 0 is a given, but beyond that, it is up to the player to decide (with referee approval) which skills are "adventure ready" and which are not at any level of professional development. So, you might have one thief who can pick locks, handle traps, and move silently, while another thief might be able to hide, speak in cant, climb, and so forth. I would probably handle fighter the same way. Off the top of my head, maybe weapon mastery would be in development; for example, either the weapon is +1 "to hit" or +1 damage, but not both until 1st level. I'm a little reluctant to hard code this stuff the way AD&D did at one time, because I view 0th level characters as clay being molded to their archetypes. I suppose I see this aspect of play as guidelines, not rules. What would be your preference, Yora?

**Posted by Yora** 4/07/2014 10:11 am

I think it's a valid approach to the subject.

The one thing I'd personally do different is to maybe add a short paragraph on 0th level character that spells it out like this to new GMs. Thankfully I got the pdf, but when having a hardcopy it can be really frustrating to see something mentioned, that you might assume to be explained in detail somewhere in the book, but being unable to find it.
It probably helps a lot if you are familiar with AD&D and already know that the subject of 0th level character has traditionally been left to interpreation by GMs. But otherwise it is a bit confusing.

Actually by far my favorite thing about AS&SH is how much the editing is improved over the AD&D books. The original edditing is a disastrous mess with rules being split into several fragments and hidden all over the boks, but with AS&SH I have all the rules about a specific aspect of the game in one place with barely any need to flip back and forth between inconprehensibly labled sections. This is the first time that I think I really understand how this game is supposed to work. Which may be part of the reason why the absence of explainations of 0th level NPCs suprised and confused me that much.

**Posted by Ghul** 4/07/2014 12:23 pm

Okay, Yora. I've added it to my list of things to consider for the next printing.

**Posted by finarvyn** 4/10/2014 4:05 am

Yora wrote:
Do 0th level clerics get 1d6 hp and magicians 1d3 hp?
Do they get those +2 bonuses to saving throws?
Do 0th level fighter get weapon mastery?
Do 0th level thieves get backstab and +1 to unarmored AC?
Do 0th level magicians get a familiar and Read Magic?

When I run 0th level adventures, I do so without using class at all. My thinking is that characters can't do anything really cool yet, so no weapon mastery or picking pockets skill or spellcasting or anything of the sort. They're just people and can use stat checks to try things. If they succeed a lot doing something, they may want to advance to 1st level where they gain a class and whatever skills or powers go with that class.