HYPERBOREA / AS&SH 2nd Print?

**Posted by Chainsaw** 1/23/2015 3:05 pm

To be clear, I don't think corruption needs to be part of the core game either, but I am not necessarily opposed to an optional "deal with the devil" mechanism that has the potential to corrupt. As for sanity, I don't know. Again, I am not opposed to an optional system, though I probably would not use it in this case.

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 1/23/2015 11:30 pm

I like the idea that magic is a rather uncontrollable or unpredictable force, taking a toll on the witch or wizard. Of course you could limit it to certain subclasses, or have the white/grey/black magic that joseph was talking about. I can definitely see it as an optional class idea, or more generally as an optional rule. Love it or hate it, 5e does have a pretty basic mechanic for madness and insanity which I wouldn't mind pinching for AS&SH. Its affects range from temporary to permanent. I also conceptualise the idea of 'over channelling' as being pretty neat. Like the caster knows they'll screw themselves over, but in certain situations it's a sacrifice they are willing to make, for the power they will receive. Perhaps they are able to obliterate an opponent by channeling raw magic, but they end up with burns or lose a point of con, or any other fitting occurrence. Of course, so the player didn't feel this was undue, they should have some control over when the overchanneling or casting takes place. If they feel they are in a dire threat, they can use their unearthly magic, but at peril of health or soul.

**Posted by joseph** 1/24/2015 4:22 pm

BA23 definitely has some excellent points, but I think Handy hit the nail with the argument against Sanity - PCs are more accustomed to dealing with the strange, sanity- blasting horrors of the game world. That's the reason I have not used it. What made me start thinking about it is that one of my PCs recently acquired a load of Lovecraft - style books and has started reading them.

As for the corrupting power of magic, I am talking about dark magic and the corruption of the soul, rather than physical deformity, as well as the dangers that come with using powerful black magic. This is something I have seen evidenced in my (brief) reading of Leiber and perhaps in Moorcock as well. I think mechanically it would be best handled in relation to the alignment system. I could go either way on it, but I agree that it isn't necessary. It seems like an interesting concept to me.

Last edited by joseph (1/24/2015 4:24 pm)

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/24/2015 6:51 pm

I think it's entirely reasonable to have tomes of unspeakable knowledge cause insanity (perhaps if a save is failed). Some of the more outre monsters in AS&SH (such as the colour out of space and the elder thing) already have the potential to cause madness. I think that's fine.

What I would object to personally is a general "sanity" system where the PCs are making rolls every time they see ghouls, fish-men, zombies, or whatever. As well as being annoying, I don't believe that fits the genre at all. These aren't 1920's academics. These are hardened adventurers in an unearthly setting. They can handle seeing a few outer space monsters and dead people walking around.

**Posted by Ghul** 1/24/2015 6:59 pm

Fellows, I'm afraid I'm not terribly interested in any kind of sanity / corruption in AS&SH, but I do respect and encourage referees to implement such rules if they feel it would enhance their own game. I would further encourage such fellows to write something up, posted somewhere on this site or even submitted for consideration to Scott's AFS magazine. So, while it just isn't something that I'm personally interested in, I want everyone to feel comfortable making AS&SH their own and adjusting to meet their own personal tastes.

One thing that I've thought about a lot, and somewhere I have some notes on this (an idea that got scrapped during development), is ritual spells that do come with personal risks. Demon summoning, gating in horrifying, alien beings from beyond the veil, and so forth.

**Posted by Ghul** 1/24/2015 7:04 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
I think it's entirely reasonable to have tomes of unspeakable knowledge cause insanity (perhaps if a save is failed). Some of the more outre monsters in AS&SH (such as the colour out of space and the elder thing) already have the potential to cause madness. I think that's fine.

What I would object to personally is a general "sanity" system where the PCs are making rolls every time they see ghouls, fish-men, zombies, or whatever. As well as being annoying, I don't believe that fits the genre at all. These aren't 1920's academics. These are hardened adventurers in an unearthly setting. They can handle seeing a few outer space monsters and dead people walking around.

This is well said, and I do agree. When you play Call of Cthulhu, and you're supposed to be playing some college professor who's dabbled in reading about Unspeakable Things, and your character comes face-to-face with the That Which Should Not Be Seen, it makes sense to have a sanity system.

**Posted by The_Great_Lestrade** 1/24/2015 8:21 pm

use wisdom, thats what i do. Wisdom doesn't do a great deal in most characters so i use it as sanity. Some times a character might lose wisdom if they fail a saving throw. If they reach 0 wis they lose their mind.

Generally I have a characters mental stats, wis, int and cha be that of the players choosing. They can act as clever or dumb as they wish in their roleplaying, or being as extrovert or introvert as they like. Intellegence becomes education/memory, charisma becomes attractiveness and wisdom sanity.

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 1/25/2015 7:56 am

Regarding corruption, whilst I see your point (Blackadder23, Handy Haversack), it has been noted in at least one review (RPG.net) that maintaining the default AD&D magic system is a bit of a lost opportunity. The pont is, magic in S&S is 'not like' magic in AD&D with its elves and hobits ect; there is often a cost to the magician (devilish pacts and delving into That Which Should Not Be Known) not reflected in the game's mechanics.

Whilst one may differentiate between different sorts of magic, there is seemingly an expectation 'out there' that S&S games should acknowledge the corrupting influence of at least some types of magic on the magician.

Maybe something to consider for a downloadable document. Just a thought.

Last edited by Doctor_Rob (1/25/2015 8:01 am)

**Posted by Chainsaw** 1/25/2015 8:12 am

Doc, perhaps you should draft some corruption rules and share them in a thread here. I'd be interested in seeing what you had in mind. Might even turn into a fun AFS article.

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 1/25/2015 2:58 pm

I'd be interested in a doc like that.

**Posted by rhialto** 1/25/2015 4:22 pm

Ghul wrote:
One thing that I've thought about a lot, and somewhere I have some notes on this (an idea that got scrapped during development), is ritual spells that do come with personal risks. Demon summoning, gating in horrifying, alien beings from beyond the veil, and so forth.

Now this would be cool to see: what were the personal risks and how did you propose to handle them in terms of mechanics?

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 1/25/2015 6:09 pm

Chainsaw wrote:
Doc, perhaps you should draft some corruption rules and share them in a thread here. I'd be interested in seeing what you had in mind. Might even turn into a fun AFS article.

Hmm, yes, I shall see what I can come up with...

**Posted by Blackadder23** 1/26/2015 9:43 am

Not to harp on this point, but the original spell system in D&D is derived (as Gary himself stated) from the one in the Dying Earth science fantasy series by pulp fantasy author Jack Vance. I don't see where it has anything to do with elves or hobbits. It seems eminently suited for a weird pulp fantasy game. For example, this is how Vance himself explains the process at one point in the series:

"They would be poignant corrosive spells, of such a nature that one would daunt the brain of an ordinary man and two render him mad. Mazirian, by dint of stringent exercise, could encompass four of the most formidable, or six of the lesser spells."

Pretty weird, right? Even before I knew it was derived from the Dying Earth series, the D&D magic system still struck me as weird. You cram spells into your brain, and casting them burns them back out again in a display of magical power. That sounds pretty bizarre to me, and well-suited to a game of pulp fantasy sword & sorcery set in a dying earth.
All that said, I would still be interested in seeing any alternate magic system that anyone devises for AS&SH. I admire ingenuity for its own sake.

**Posted by Doctor_Rob** 1/26/2015 11:47 am

Following encouragement and commentary in this thread, I've been motivated to have a go at composing some magical corruption rules (eek!).

Rather than clog-up this thread (which is about a 2nd ASSH printing), I've started a new thread "Magical Corruption for ASSH and other Retroclone RPGs" on this forum here: http://hyperborea.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=355

Constructive comments welcome!

Rob

**Posted by Rastus_Burne** 1/26/2015 3:01 pm

Thanks for creating that. Looks good. Feedback provided

**Posted by Chainsaw** 5/26/2015 8:03 pm

Any updates or new thoughts on this front, Jeff?

**Posted by Ghul** 5/27/2015 5:30 am

I did have more boxes than I'd originally calculated a while back, as I hadn't accounted for the overage in printing that I'd received. I'm estimating that I got about 150+ more boxes than the 1,000 that I'd ordered, so now I'm finally under 200 sets remaining. This puts me into "condition critical!" for print copies of the game, which leads me to the next printing of the game. Things will go into moton this summer!

**Posted by Ghul** 5/27/2015 5:52 am

I've got a list of new features to be included in the next printing, but it's not set in stone:

Four new classes: Cryomancer (magician), Huntsman (fighter), Purloiner (thief), and Seer (cleric). I'm hoping to get the seer in an upcoming issue of AFS.

We've got some new charts in the works: weather tables, monster encounters by region, and a sun tracker. I'm also thinking about the starting equipment lists for all classes as drafted by Mr. Ball.

We'll have new monsters, new magic items, and new spells.

We will address errata, but there will be no major rules changes. The game will be the same. There will be some new art. A decent amount of the old art will remain, but new blood will be introduced, a fresh perspective on the setting. Of course layout will be overhauled and who knows what else! But I want to stress that none of this makes the boxed set obsolete.

Thanks!

**Posted by francisca** 5/27/2015 7:15 am

Ghul wrote:
I did have more boxes than I'd originally calculated a while back, as I hadn't accounted for the overage in printing that I'd received. I'm estimating that I got about 150+ more boxes than the 1,000 that I'd ordered, so now I'm finally under 200 sets remaining. This puts me into "condition critical!" for print copies of the game, which leads me to the next printing of the game. Things will go into moton this summer!

So you've sold close to 1000 boxed sets? That's outstanding!

**Posted by Agricola** 5/27/2015 10:28 am

Ghul wrote:
I've got a list of new features to be included in the next printing, but it's not set in stone:

Four new classes: Cryomancer (magician), Huntsman (fighter), Purloiner (thief), and Seer (cleric). I'm hoping to get the seer in an upcoming issue of AFS.

We've got some new charts in the works: weather tables, monster encounters by region, and a sun tracker. I'm also thinking about the starting equipment lists for all classes as drafted by Mr. Ball.

We'll have new monsters, new magic items, and new spells.

We will address errata, but there will be no major rules changes. The game will be the same. There will be some new art. A decent amount of the old art will remain, but new blood will be introduced, a fresh perspective on the setting. Of course layout will be overhauled and who knows what else! But I want to stress that none of this makes the boxed set obsolete.

Thanks!

Sounds Great! Would the Warlock subclass have the Ice Lord option (Cryomancer spell list)? Thanks!