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3/27/2014 8:14 am  #1


Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

vol.5, p. 179 wrote:

The map is marked with lines of latitude and longitude. Longitudinal lines align with the Great Obelisks and converge at Mount Vhuurmithadon, the treble-peaked epicentre of the realm. Moving toward Mount Vhuurmithadon is north, and moving away from it is south. Latitudinal lines technically begin at an imaginary circle that touches each of the six Great Obelisks; effectively this is 0° latitude. Latitudinal lines progress north from the Great Obelisks, so 18°N, 36°N, 54°N, and 72°N are displayed. Mount Vhuurmithadon is the 90°N mark, the geographic North Pole of the realm. East and west are relative to one’s position when facing north; in general, if north is faced, east is to the right and west is to the left. The sun lingers on the horizon and is ever westering; to follow the path of the sun is to travel west.

Have you internalized--or, rather, externalized?--this in your game? That is, when you give your players directions, do you orient them this way? Only in large-scale directions? In dungeons? Is that even possible?

I just realized that I had referred to the Gal coast as east of where we started the game, but it's really not. Technically, it's due south! That is, almost directly along a longitude line. Now I have edit the campaign journal . . .

So what do you think happens in Hyperborea when one asks directions. Does the direction give always turn to face Mount Vhuurmithadon and relate his information thus? Do you translate this for your players or simply give it "in character"? Does it make a difference?

Just wondering how people had dealt with this unique feature of Hyperborea.

 

3/27/2014 8:47 am  #2


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

I've had a little difficulty in handling this as a referee in my games, but my players haven't ventured too far outside Khromarium. I'm used to numbered hex maps to make the sandbox a little easier to navigate on the fly, and kind of wish there was one of the map for this game.

I've got a plan to redraw the map in hexographer and let the program number it for me. There's a tracing function in the program that'll allow me to place the actual map underneath and trace over the actual lines. The trick is getting the hex cells to match up.

 

3/27/2014 8:49 am  #3


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

flumph wrote:

I've had a little difficulty in handling this as a referee in my games, but my players haven't ventured too far outside Khromarium. I'm used to numbered hex maps to make the sandbox a little easier to navigate on the fly, and kind of wish there was one of the map for this game.

I've got a plan to redraw the map in hexographer and let the program number it for me. There's a tracing function in the program that'll allow me to place the actual map underneath and trace over the actual lines. The trick is getting the hex cells to match up.

I'm jealous. My brain almost completely shuts down when confronted by hexes, especially blank hexes! My players always threaten to turn the battle mat over from the square side to the hex side just to watch me melt down.
 

     Thread Starter
 

3/27/2014 8:57 am  #4


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

You should check out the D30 sandbox companion, something that allows you to organize overland locations. http://www.rpgnow.com/product/124392/d30-Sandbox-Companion

It's nice for a ref to have something fast to get from location to location. I don't like to share the actual map from the game with my players, just rough hand drawn maps that may or may not be accurate.

 

 

3/27/2014 9:26 am  #5


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

"East and west are relative to one’s position when facing north; in general, if north is faced, east is to the right and west is to the left. The sun lingers on the horizon and is ever westering; to follow the path of the sun is to travel west."

This part seems to be physically impossible.  If two men are standing on opposite sides of Mount Vhuurmithadon - in effect facing each other - and each one considers himself to be facing north, then the sun (whichever side of the sky it's on) should be westward for one and eastward for the other.  However, this is not a criticism; I consider the apparent impossibility of this scenario to be one of the things that's fundamentally "wrong" with Hyperborea, akin to the non-Euclidian geometry of R'lyeh.  Based on the description in the gazetteer, when you walk around to the other side of Mount Vhuurmithadon, the sun apparently switches places in the sky.  Tell me that's not crazy! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png


EDIT: Never mind. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
 On reflection I realized direction must work something like this vis a vis the real North Pole, so it can't be a physical impossibility -  even though it makes no sense.  Oh well, it's still pretty cool even if it doesn't reflect the hand of Xathoqqua. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

Last edited by Blackadder23 (3/27/2014 9:44 am)


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

3/27/2014 1:18 pm  #6


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Blackadder23 wrote:

"East and west are relative to one’s position when facing north; in general, if north is faced, east is to the right and west is to the left. The sun lingers on the horizon and is ever westering; to follow the path of the sun is to travel west."

This part seems to be physically impossible.  If two men are standing on opposite sides of Mount Vhuurmithadon - in effect facing each other - and each one considers himself to be facing north, then the sun (whichever side of the sky it's on) should be westward for one and eastward for the other.  However, this is not a criticism; I consider the apparent impossibility of this scenario to be one of the things that's fundamentally "wrong" with Hyperborea, akin to the non-Euclidian geometry of R'lyeh.  Based on the description in the gazetteer, when you walk around to the other side of Mount Vhuurmithadon, the sun apparently switches places in the sky.  Tell me that's not crazy! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png


EDIT: Never mind. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
 On reflection I realized direction must work something like this vis a vis the real North Pole, so it can't be a physical impossibility -  even though it makes no sense.  Oh well, it's still pretty cool even if it doesn't reflect the hand of Xathoqqua. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

Whew. Because for a minute you had really blown my mind. "But it *does* work--doesn't it?--does it?--man, I'm constantly confused!"

The sun "turns" counterclockwise from the perspective of someone standing on the pinnacle of Mount Vhuurmithadon. right? So from anywhere else, facing "north" means that the sun is always moving toward your left, "westering." Yes?

It might be safer for me and my limited grasp of spatial relations to focus on how people in Hyerpborea would talk about directions. The Hyperborean Sea would be "the southern ocean" from anyone's POV, and the Rapids at the End of the World and the Black Gulf would be in the utter south, right, far south of the River Okeanos? It's a bit confusing that the North Wind is *south* of all these things, but you can take that up with Boreas if you dare. I guess it is still to the north from the perspective of Old Earth.

I wonder if Hyperboreans (in general) would have words for the "other south," that is, a south that lies across the Great Spiral Array from where they are (or where they grew up). Or maybe the weltanschauung is so attuned to sea travel that they only refer to how far east or west somthing is by circumnavigation?

At any rate, that old druid meant "south" when he said "east-southeast"!
 

     Thread Starter
 

3/27/2014 1:35 pm  #7


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Handy Haversack wrote:

It's a bit confusing that the North Wind is *south* of all these things, but you can take that up with Boreas if you dare. I guess it is still to the north from the perspective of Old Earth.

It's because you're in Hyperborea.  You're even north of north. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

 


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

3/27/2014 2:12 pm  #8


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Blackadder23 wrote:

Handy Haversack wrote:

It's a bit confusing that the North Wind is *south* of all these things, but you can take that up with Boreas if you dare. I guess it is still to the north from the perspective of Old Earth.

It's because you're in Hyperborea.  You're even north of north. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

 

Hea-vy. I can see through time!

     Thread Starter
 

3/27/2014 3:54 pm  #9


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

This is an interesting discussion.

Handy Haversack wrote:

It might be safer for me and my limited grasp of spatial relations to focus on how people in Hyerpborea would talk about directions.

In my game this has been the solution and it has worked so far. In my campaign there are no scholary type PC's and they don't have a map. I suppose most Hyperboreans would navigate using geographical landmarks anyway.

One of the PC's is a ship captain from another world. Her navigator had to spend months with a Hyperborean navigator to learn Hyperborean navigation principles and still won't guarantee that he gets it right.

I haven't even tried to explain this to my players, the ship's navigator training was done off camera, and i guess that when some NPC tries to explain this to the barbarian PC he will consider him a lunatic (Which means he will either kill him or do anything he says).
 


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3/27/2014 4:47 pm  #10


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Crisippo wrote:

I haven't even tried to explain this to my players, the ship's navigator training was done off camera, and i guess that when some NPC tries to explain this to the barbarian PC he will consider him a lunatic (Which means he will either kill him or do anything he says).
 

Noble creatures . . . so like us.

I guess in a dungeon or indoor setting, one could just use the cardinal directions when describing rooms--and I would probably tell my players that it's arbitrary and that they really don't know which was in north once they're underground unless they have some special means (ha! no dwarves now, jerks!). My players don't really use a map that much either, and even if they did they wouldn't use it to say "we go south" but "we go to these ruins with all the Xs and skulls and swords drawn next to them."

But I do want to nail down some sort of language for what they hear when they interact with NPCs. I would think perhaps "x points east of south" might be a way land-locked Hyperboreans describe something. Since north and south are going to define things to a great extend (toward Mt. V or toward the Black Gulf--jeez, except for the potential for treasure, it's about as inviting as my favorite highway sign in NYC; the options it gives you are New Haven, Albany, Trenton; ewww), I think the laypeople might adopt something like this.
 

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3/27/2014 8:51 pm  #11


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

In my Hyperborea direction only has meaning within the lands that you were born to, and even within such nebulous boundaries there are spots where time, space and distance are torn and twisted, altered with the coming of darkness, the time of moonless nights and swallowed suns. Travelers appear with stories of fantastic realms and wanderers who are more fantastic than the strangest of travelers tales. You may find that a path that a path which has been followed for generations now leads to a stream cutting a mountain in half where the living bones of the ancient dead dance out a history never imagined. You may follow a hat blown down a city street takes you a hundred years into the past or future, that sun burns green and the dark clouds rain flowers of ice which melt on the hot ground. 

Hyperborea is a land of mists which may sweep away a man's past and leave behin only a dream or take him to a paradise he never wants to leave. It is a land filled with horror and adventure. Truly fearless must be he who goes out of doors and beyond the settled pastures of his kin. 

 

3/27/2014 9:28 pm  #12


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

"Go on worrying about East and West instead of living or dying. I'll be sure to bury the maps with you."--- Garn Grímnesh

 

3/30/2014 7:38 pm  #13


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

I figure the map of Hyperborea is too nice not to use, so I generally have it out on the table when we play. My feeling is that direction is one of those things that should make perfect sense to characters (who have the benefit of having lived their entire lives in Hyperborea), even if it is a bit confusing and foreign to players. As such, we stumble through describing directions and don't worry about it too much.

 

3/31/2014 12:26 pm  #14


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

I realize the entire concept can be a bit confusing, or even counter-intuitive, but I think you all get what I was trying to accomplish with this aspect of the setting. I wanted Hyperborea to still behave like an "arctic continent" displaced from Old Earth; hence, Mt. Vhuurmithadon is the very apex, center, and northernmost point of Hyperborea. I also realize that if the PC party is exploring the Black Waste, you run into the cardinal directions of east and west being reversed when facing north, because west is right and east is left when facing the direction of Mt. Vhuurmithadon. For this reason, I feel it's prudent to show only "north" on an outdoor adventure map, because east and west are arbitrary divisions based on the Prime Meridian of the setting. The Prime Meridian of Hyperborea is actually less than ideal, I think in hindsight. I set up the gazetteer to be the work of sages from Khromarium, so why would the prime meridian be anywhere else but Khromarium? Perhaps the whole continent should be shifted to make this so; an easier solution, however, would be to have a small village on the coast right where the Prime Meridian passes, not so far from Port Greely. Perhaps it could be there, where some sage, sorcerer, or madman devised the cardinal directions as displayed on the map.  

Great discussion, gents!


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3/31/2014 12:54 pm  #15


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Here is a brief but interesting article on the topic:
http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-something-can-be-east-of-south-pole.html


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

3/31/2014 5:10 pm  #16


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Thinking about it too hard makes my head hurt.

 

3/31/2014 5:14 pm  #17


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

Ghul wrote:

Here is a brief but interesting article on the topic:
http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-something-can-be-east-of-south-pole.html

Thanks, Ghul!

I hadn't thought about the Prime Meridian. I wonder if anyone in situ would think about it other than the sages? Or perhaps sailors are used to using it as well.

Don't think for a second that this is a bug and not a feature as far as I'm concerned! It's party of what makes the world so cool.

When you run a game, do you default to N, S, E, W in dungeon settings, or do you just use "left" and "right"?

chrisj wrote:

Thinking about it too hard makes my head hurt.

Me, too!

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3/31/2014 5:26 pm  #18


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

When you run a game, do you default to N, S, E, W in dungeon settings, or do you just use "left" and "right"?

Good question, Handy. Since I've used Khromarium as the home base for almost all the characters in my campaign, they are accustomed to thinking of east to their right, and west to their left, and that's how we've approached dungeons.


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

4/01/2014 11:10 am  #19


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

This conversation is mind-blowing. I was understanding the directions more according to the direction the sun travels, but the idea of an arbitration prime meridian makes good sense to me. I need to re-read this section of the manual...


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4/03/2014 3:17 pm  #20


Re: Can't get there from here: Directions in Hyperborea

IMHO, the prime meridian is useful only if you want to categorize the Hyperborean space without thinking much about crossing the North.
But to navigate, without any tool, you'd need a route listing landmarks and the relative direction from one to the next.
To get back to giving direction, as it is, I think it's quite simple to do it right from your relative stand point or a local map (the arc of the latitude being irrelevant and appearing as a straight line), but a general map of Hyperborea can only confuse you if you're not on the Khromarium Meridian. 
But maybe every major town has a Hyperborean map centered on its own meridian ?

 

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