HYPERBOREA » Scrolls

mavfire · 4/21/2015 8:35 am

So I have been delving into the players guide and found something I had not noticed before. (Actually one of my kids brought it to my attention.)

Can any level of Spell Caster (Cleric/Magician and/or subclasses) characters write their own scrolls? ( In original AD&D/other fantasy RPGs they could not until like 7th level.)

Under scribe scroll it reads: "(para) To scribe a familiar spell onto a scroll, creating a single use magical device, at a cost of 500gp + 100gp per spell level. Materials may include the finest vellum, paper, or papyrus; a fresh quill; sorcerers ink, such as sepia. This involved process requires one week per spell level....." Each entry continues with flavor text regarding consecrated gounds, spell school etc depending on subclass etc.

Just wondering if all levels have this ability because it doesnt specifically give a level minimum.

Thanks

Handy Haversack · 4/21/2015 9:24 am

Exactly--as noted, spell-using classes get this as a class ability, limited only by money and time (and known spells). Note, though, that unlike in AD&D, you can't copy a found scroll into a spell book--scrolls are distilled, fast-use items rather than the whole spell banana.

Blackadder23 · 4/21/2015 10:46 am

Yes, any level caster can create a scroll (similar to Holmes Basic). They just need time and money.

Chainsaw · 4/21/2015 10:53 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
Yes, any level caster can create a scroll (similar to Holmes Basic). They just need time and money.

One of my favorite rules.

Ghul · 4/21/2015 2:54 pm

It was indeed inspired by a Holmes rule that I always thought was great.

mavfire · 4/23/2015 8:24 am

Awesome! I love it even more....I always thought that it was strange in later editions that a magic user can write spells into a spell book, but they could not write a scroll. It has always be explained as "its more difficult...blah, blah, blah." or "The fledgeling magic user wouldnt have the skills...blah, bl;ah, blah."

This is way more realistic. I never played Holmes version, as I started with Mentzer, then AD&D 1st, then 2nd. I think that I will have to check out the holmes set...see if I can find it.

Thanks for the clarification!

Monkeydono · 3/30/2016 12:40 pm

A separate question on using scrolls & determining scrolls found in treasure:
It is noted that there are seven magical languages - magician, cleric, druid, illusionist, necromancer, pyromancer, witch - this leaves out the priest and shaman which can pen (or smear) scrolls...
Is it that priests and clerics use the same scroll language with druids and shamans using interchangeable symbols and runes?

If this is not the case, then a possible house rule/work-around for determining scrolls in treasure might be that one-in-six cleric scrolls are written in priest script and one-in-six druid scrolls are shaman in nature with one-in-three of these being expired due to the oft perishable medium used by many shamans.

Monkeydono · 3/30/2016 12:56 pm

I chatted with Handy about this and, if I remember correct, his house rule is that clerics' and priests' share the same language yet shamans' "scrolls" are idiosyncratic enough that their use are very personal...

Blackadder23 · 3/30/2016 1:26 pm

Under the shaman character class description it states: "...a shaman cannot learn new spells from other spell books, prayer books, or scrolls, unless such sources are the works of another shaman" which would seem by extension to rule out using the scrolls of "normal" clerics or priests (or druids for that matter). I agree with Handy that cleric and priest spells are the same (or to put it another way, priests cast clerical spells).

I do wonder if this might be clarified in the hardcover?

Last edited by Blackadder23 (3/30/2016 1:28 pm)

Monkeydono · 3/30/2016 2:00 pm

Blackadder23 wrote:
Under the shaman character class description it states: "...a shaman cannot learn new spells from other spell books, prayer books, or scrolls, unless such sources are the works of another shaman"

(don't have the books in front of me currently) I believe that all of the spell users have a similar disclaimer prohibiting their use of other sources for learning new spells, it's mainly whether there are 7, 8 or 9 scroll languages thus, depending on the answer, how to determine scroll treasure type...?

...so regarding the Handy cosmos as an example with which to bandy, indeed priest and clerics may read from the same scrolls therefore no change to treasure determination; for shamans, they may only read from the scrolls that they have personally made (no one else, shaman or otherwise, may use it) thus, also, no change to the treasure rolls for scrolls...

(sorry, know this is a little wonky but I love the fiddly bits!)

Blackadder23 · 3/30/2016 2:51 pm

Monkeydono wrote:
(don't have the books in front of me currently) I believe that all of the spell users have a similar disclaimer prohibiting their use of other sources for learning new spells

The disclaimer on the shaman class is unusual. The warlock and legerdemainist, for example, have no such statements in their class descriptions. Presumably a warlock who casts magician spells can learn spells from the scrolls or spell books of a "standard" magician; he isn't limited only to the spell books and scrolls of other warlocks. A shaman is explicitly limited to the spell books and scrolls of other shamans, while a bard (again by explicit statement in the class description) can't learn spells from books or scrolls at all. The question I have is whether it is the intention that "can't learn spells from a scroll" also means "can't cast spells from a scroll" in the case of shamans and bards.

That point aside, and to address the original issue you raised, I believe the following is true according to the RAW:

Magicians, some warlocks, and some legerdemainists can use magician scrolls
Clerics and priests can use clerical scrolls
Illusionists and some legerdemainists can use illusionist scrolls
Necromancers and some warlocks can use necromancer scrolls
Pyromancers, some warlocks, and some legerdemainists can use pyromancer scrolls
Witches only can use witch scrolls
Druids can use druid scrolls (but possibly also bards and some shamans)

It's a grey area to me whether shamans can use magician, necromancer, druid, or clerical scrolls, and whether bards can use illusionist or druid scrolls. There are indications in both directions. I don't think a table showing which classes can use what scrolls, or even explicit statements in all the class descriptions, would be a bad thing to include in the new printing.
EDIT: Rangers and paladins can cast spells at higher levels, but the class descriptions explicitly say neither class can use scrolls. Also, high level thieves can use magician, illusionist, necromancer, pyromancer, and witch scrolls with a successful skill check. I think that covers every class that can cast spells or use scrolls or both (ignoring the new classes coming in the hardcover).

Last edited by Blackadder23 (3/30/2016 2:57 pm)

DMPrata · 3/31/2016 9:25 am

Blackadder23 wrote:
Monkeydono wrote:
(don't have the books in front of me currently) I believe that all of the spell users have a similar disclaimer prohibiting their use of other sources for learning new spells
Magicians, some warlocks, and some legerdemainists can use magician scrolls
Clerics and priests can use clerical scrolls
Illusionists and some legerdemainists can use illusionist scrolls
Necromancers and some warlocks can use necromancer scrolls
Pyromancers, some warlocks, and some legerdemainists can use pyromancer scrolls
Witches only can use witch scrolls
Druids can use druid scrolls (but possibly also bards and some shamans)

Here's my understanding:

By school
Magicians, high-level thieves, most warlocks, most shamans, high-level bards, and most legerdemainists can use magician scrolls.
Cryomancers*, high-level thieves, some warlocks*, high-level bards, and some legerdemainists* can use cryomancer* scrolls.
Illusionists, high-level thieves, bards, and some legerdemainists can use illusionist scrolls.
Necromancers, some warlocks, some shamans, high-level thieves, and high-level bards can use necromancer scrolls.
Pyromancers, some warlocks, high-level thieves, high-level bards, and some legerdemainists can use pyromancer scrolls.
Witches, high-level thieves, and high-level bards can use witch scrolls.
Clerics, priests, most shamans, high-level bards, and purloiners* can use cleric scrolls.
Druids, some shamans, and bards can use druid scrolls.

By class
Magicians can use magician scrolls.
Clerics can use cleric scrolls.
High-level thieves can use magician, cryomancer*, illusionist, necromancer, pyromancer, and witch scrolls (with a successful skill check).
Warlocks can use magician, cryomancer*, necromancer, OR pyromancer scrolls.
Cryomancers* can use cryomancer* scrolls.
Illusionists can use illusionist scrolls.
Necromancers can use necromancer scrolls.
Pyromancers can use pyromancer scrolls.
Witches can use witch scrolls.
Druids can use druid scrolls.
Priests can use cleric scrolls.
Shamans can use magician OR necromancer scrolls and cleric OR druid scrolls, though they can't use them to research new spells unless they were scribed by a fellow shaman.
Bards can use illusionist and druid scrolls, though they can't use them to research new spells; high-level bards can use magician, cryomancer*, necromancer, pyromancer, witch, and cleric scrolls (with a successful skill check).
Legerdemainists can use magician, cryomancer*, illusionist, OR pyromancer scrolls.
Purloiners* can use cleric scrolls.

* Coming soon to a hardcover near you

mabon5127 · 3/31/2016 9:59 am

You probably noted this already but the Cryomancer will need to be added to the scroll type table in the treasure section.

Should shaman created scrolls be added as a scroll type even though they may only be useful to other shaman?

Morgan

Blackadder23 · 3/31/2016 11:18 am

So per Dave (whose interpretation I obviously trust) the intent of the RAW is: if you can cast spells from a school of magic, you can also use scrolls from that school of magic - with the exception of rangers and paladins, who are explicitly forbidden from using scrolls. (Also, high level thieves can use scrolls without being able to cast spells at all.) Bards and shamans are not exceptions to this rule, except that high level bards can use scrolls from some other schools of magic with a skill check.

Great. I like the simplicity of that.

Last edited by Blackadder23 (3/31/2016 11:23 am)

Blackadder23 · 3/31/2016 11:28 am

mabon5127 wrote:
You probably noted this already but the Cryomancer will need to be added to the scroll type table in the treasure section.

Should shaman created scrolls be added as a scroll type even though they may only be useful to other shaman?

Morgan

That has me wondering - a magician scroll written by a shaman could still be used by a magician for spell research, right? Just not the other way around?

In any event, I agree that it would be beneficial for shaman PCs if some random scrolls were designated as "shaman product". Or maybe they're meant to be very rare?

Last edited by Blackadder23 (3/31/2016 11:30 am)

Handy Haversack · 3/31/2016 11:41 am

Call me old-fashioned, but I have trouble seeing the fungibility of shaman scrolls in the Handy cosmos. Deranged scribblings on the skin of a white elk meant to quickly activate sleep just don't strike me as likely to be that useful to Lord Magicbottom of Khromarium. I don't even like the idea of shamans being able to use scrolls made by other shamans--unless they share a totem. Even then I'm leery.

I like my shamans crazy. Like your uncle who thinks he's a chicken. He's nutso, but you can't get rid of him. You need the eggs.

mabon5127 · 3/31/2016 12:02 pm

Dave's clarification will help a lot!

Shaman are specifically restricted from using scrolls for learning new spells from their chosen spell classes unless the scroll was created by a shaman. In this case it may be good to add shaman as a "type" to be found on the scroll type table.

Does this mean that shaman are a more primitive form of the chosen classes so that for the purpose of learning new spells the scrolls are not interchangeable for the shaman or the chosen class? In other words could a magician learn a magician's spell on a scroll created by a shaman?

Morgan

mabon5127 · 3/31/2016 12:04 pm

Sorry BA I cross posted!

mabon5127 · 3/31/2016 12:05 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
Lord Magicbottom of Khromarium.

A new lead for Knives in the Dark!

Blackadder23 · 3/31/2016 12:38 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
Call me old-fashioned, but I have trouble seeing the fungibility of shaman scrolls in the Handy cosmos. Deranged scribblings on the skin of a white elk meant to quickly activate sleep just don't strike me as likely to be that useful to Lord Magicbottom of Khromarium. I don't even like the idea of shamans being able to use scrolls made by other shamans--unless they share a totem. Even then I'm leery.

I like my shamans crazy. Like your uncle who thinks he's a chicken. He's nutso, but you can't get rid of him. You need the eggs.

I guess I could see the argument either way. One theme in a lot of Lovecraft's stories is "civilized" men learning dangerous truths from the scribblings of ancient heathens. So I could see "civilized" men in Hyperborea piecing together spells from the scribblings of contemporary heathens.

Your way sounds cool too.