HYPERBOREA » Critical hits & Advanced Combat

Rastus_Burne · 4/06/2015 7:18 am

Great news! We begin our AS&SH campaign this coming week - well, making characters that is, then actually playing the following week I suspect! To prepare myself for the referee's role, I spent a few hours today re-reading some of the rules to brush up on my knowledge. The more I read this ruleset the more it really gels with me (as in: 'this is awesome, I wish I had have thought of this!'). I had a few questions, but through re-reading some stuff and checking out the excellent Combat Actions sheet most of my questions have thus been answered.

I do have some lingering queries, though it's more to do with preference than any great confusion. Firstly, how many of you play with the Critical Hits rule? Clearly this rule also insinuates the use of 1 = always miss, while 20 = always hits. I've toyed with eliminating these rules, or rather options, for a game without criticals or auto-hit/auto-miss. But part of me thinks it would be pretty cool to use the criticals rules. So for those who have used them: thoughts/opinions? Too lethal? Just right?

Which brings me to my next question, also related to the first. My group concluded our roughly two-year Pathfinder campaign tonight (Hallelujah). The guys I play with are certainly no stranger to rules, rules, rules. I prefer a simpler system myself, hence this coming campaign, but I know they'll enjoy the granularity of the Advanced Combat options. How have people generally integrated them? All at once, or slowly over time? I wouldn't feel particularly overwhelmed by throwing it all into one big Hyperborean stew, but can also see the wisdom in introducing it over time, as the Two-phase combat system will probably take some adjustment initially on my part to get it running like a well-oiled machine. One of my characters is making a berserker, and the other is making a ranger. The others haven't decided yet. The one making the ranger has read over the Advanced Combat rules and I think would like to make use of a couple of them for his character.

Thanks for your insights!

Handy Haversack · 4/06/2015 7:48 am

Very cool, RB!

For what it's worth, I don't think use of the crit. rule implies that a 1 always misses and a 20 always hits. It seems the "Critical Misses" section only specifically mentions the making a 1 always miss if desired. At any rate, not that I think it's come up, but the nat. 20 (plus any bonuses) still has to qualify as a hit in my game. Sometimes, there's just nothing you can do. I think a combat matrix that has target numbers from -1 to 20 supports this.

For the advanced combat maneuvers, I just made sure my players were aware of them and then they came into play naturally as the players got used to their characters. Probably the most common ones my players have used are dodge, parry and block, ready shooter, reckless fighting, recumbent fire (just for fun--whenever possible), runing dodge, spear charge, and two-weapon fighting. Still waiting for pike hedge!

mabon5127 · 4/06/2015 12:46 pm

Although its probably one of those things that I just house-ruled in my head I use 1 always misses and 20 always hits. I like the 20 always hits as the characters still take hoards of creatures seriously. Thinking back though the characters have never gotton really low AC's (except for the Ziconium Suit!) so hoards of creatures are still dangerous.

The players really like the Crit table.

Blackadder23 · 4/06/2015 2:56 pm

I would make sure my players could handle being on the receiving end before I used the critical hits rules. Because it will happen.

As for the advanced combat actions, they're not complicated at all. The main reason I don't use them is I don't like players drawing up formulaic combat plans: "So at the beginning of every combat, I'll employ a Shield Splitter against whoever looks toughest, followed by a Throw and Attack with a Spear Charge..." Anything that smacks of too much metagaming calculation antagonizes me. I would far rather have the players tell me what creative things they want to do, and I'll adjudicate a bonus or special effect on the spot. At least that way they might try some different tactics from combat to combat.

That said, Jeff came up with a pretty good set of advanced combat actions. They're certainly worth trying if you like that kind of thing.

Handy Haversack · 4/06/2015 3:40 pm

mabon5127 wrote:
The players really like the Crit table.

Blackadder23 wrote:
I would make sure my players could handle being on the receiving end before I used the critical hits rules. Because it will happen.

Yeah, we had stopped using anything of the sort in AD&D because over the long run it hurts the players. But I gave them the choice, and we're rolling with it. I think the slightly more forgiving death and recuperation rules in AS&SH make the crits a bit easier to absorb.

Rastus_Burne · 4/06/2015 3:53 pm

Some great food for thought here. I'll put it out to the group and see whether they'd like to use critical hits, I'm almost 100% they'll want to use Advanced Combat but I may as well ask them about that too.

Ghul · 4/06/2015 6:00 pm

Just want to thank all the kind fellows who chimed in with their replies. It's nice to see this little community thriving and growing.

Rastus_Burne · 4/06/2015 8:11 pm

Ghul wrote:
Just want to thank all the kind fellows who chimed in with their replies. It's nice to see this little community thriving and growing.

What approach do you follow for your games Jeff?

Chainsaw · 4/06/2015 8:17 pm

Rastus_Burne wrote:
Firstly, how many of you play with the Critical Hits rule?

In my games, whether Hyperborea or AD&D, I leave it up to the players, but I remind them that the monsters can benefit from critical hits too. I find that players usually go with it anyway because it has the potential to make for more memorable sessions.

For example, at Gary Con VII in Ghul's Ghost Ship game, EOTB rolled a critical hit on a backstab attempt, probably changing the adventure outcome. Everyone went crazy and we all laughed, it was great. If that had been a regular hit, who knows - maybe the target would have survived to retaliate. So, I think it's the promise of cool results that outweigh the arguable statistical disadvantage for some players.

Rastus_Burne wrote:
But part of me thinks it would be pretty cool to use the criticals rules. So for those who have used them: thoughts/opinions? Too lethal? Just right?

I like them so far. Seems fun to have some variability to the magnitude of the critical hit damage - it's not just max damage or double damage.

Rastus_Burne wrote:
Advanced Combat options.

I certainly allow them, but my players haven't really used them. They're more likely to describe a stunt and then leave it in my hands. capitalbill's probably an OD&D guy at heart, ligedog and Rob are more B/X-AD&D and my brother has very limited experience in comparison, so he takes his cues from the other three. Plus, they know that if they take the time to propose something remotely reasonable, I usually respond in kind and aim for "giving cool a chance."

Rastus_Burne · 4/06/2015 8:30 pm

Thanks Chainsaw, some good feedback.

I put it to my players this morning. So far it seems like they want both critical hits and advanced combat options (which is what I predicted). I'm happy either way. Without these options it's arguably 'faster', but the options provide some unpredicted eventualities. I rather like the idea that a 20 may not always hit, and a 1 may not always miss. While I'll be happy to include critical hits and advanced combat, I may stick to the idea that a 20 has to actually hit for the critical to be possible!

Speaking of which, what monsters do people generally consense are critical-able? I'll just house rule this ad hoc, but I'm always interested in how others do it.

Chainsaw · 4/06/2015 8:42 pm

Rastus_Burne wrote:
So far it seems like they want both critical hits and advanced combat options (which is what I predicted).

Cool - let us know how it goes!

Rastus_Burne wrote:
Speaking of which, what monsters do people generally consense are critical-able? I'll just house rule this ad hoc, but I'm always interested in how others do it.

I can't speak for others, but I pretty much follow the Players' Manual here...

"Players Manual, p221" wrote:
These blows are considered powerful, perfectly timed (and placed), and sometimes lucky. ... Any creature that can be hit and damaged by a physical blow is subject to a critical hit; i.e., crits do not conform to the same restrictions as a thief’s backstab ability (see VOL. I, CLASSES, thief), because they do not specifically target vital areas.

Rastus_Burne · 4/06/2015 9:32 pm

Chainsaw wrote:

"Players Manual, p221" wrote:
These blows are considered powerful, perfectly timed (and placed), and sometimes lucky. ... Any creature that can be hit and damaged by a physical blow is subject to a critical hit; i.e., crits do not conform to the same restrictions as a thief’s backstab ability (see VOL. I, CLASSES, thief), because they do not specifically target vital areas.

I did read that, but somehow I completely overlooked the specifics!

Thanks.

mabon5127 · 4/07/2015 5:57 am

Handy Haversack wrote:
mabon5127 wrote:
The players really like the Crit table.
Blackadder23 wrote:
I would make sure my players could handle being on the receiving end before I used the critical hits rules. Because it will happen.
Yeah, we had stopped using anything of the sort in AD&D because over the long run it hurts the players. But I gave them the choice, and we're rolling with it. I think the slightly more forgiving death and recuperation rules in AS&SH make the crits a bit easier to absorb.

The most memorable instance of a monster criting was a cyclops that crit a player with his canoe sized club. The players still like using the table regardless...
One question do crits modify all dice of an attack or just one of them?

Rastus_Burne · 4/07/2015 6:06 am

Just the weapon dice are modified I think. So a +2 magical 1d6 weapon would do 2d6 on a x2, adding the +2, and any other modifiers on top of that. In other words I think magic modifiers remain consistent regardless of critical. I may be mistaken however

mabon5127 · 4/07/2015 7:03 am

You are correct. I was wondering about monster damage dice. If a creature does 3d6 then are all dice multiplied or just one of them? I modify all of them currently, just wondering if others did something different.

Rastus_Burne · 4/07/2015 7:09 am

I would rule as you do it currently.

Handy Haversack · 4/07/2015 7:34 am

mabon5127 wrote:
You are correct. I was wondering about monster damage dice. If a creature does 3d6 then are all dice multiplied or just one of them? I modify all of them currently, just wondering if others did something different.

Righto. Just the same way you'd double the number of dice on a two-handed sword wielded by a PC. Critical hits by some monsters can really leave a mark!

gizmomathboy · 4/07/2015 8:15 am

I didn't see it mentioned but looking at the combat matrix there are "to hits" greater than 20. I would interpret that to mean that even a natural 20 wouldn't hit those without some bonuses. That means no crit either...unless you get the natural 20 plus sufficient bonuses to actually hit.

However, this thread is more about crits and failures which as has been mentioned is more of a house rule thing that the group decides.

Rastus_Burne · 4/07/2015 4:54 pm

Stated somewhere is a rule that you can either have everything hit on a natural 20, or require it to be an actual hit. I align myself more with the idea that you actually need to have the correct bonuses in order to hit; that sometimes, even when luck is in your favour, your opponent will always outmatch you.

Chainsaw · 4/07/2015 5:53 pm

Rastus_Burne wrote:
Stated somewhere is a rule that you can either have everything hit on a natural 20, or require it to be an actual hit. I align myself more with the idea that you actually need to have the correct bonuses in order to hit; that sometimes, even when luck is in your favour, your opponent will always outmatch you.

Players' Manual p204 wrote:
ATTACK ROLL: A d20 roll that determines whether an attack hits or misses. Almost every combatant has a chance to strike his opponent. Many attack rolls are modified by attributes such as strength and dexterity (see VOL. I, ATTRIBUTES), special abilities, sorcery, and other factors. N.B.: If the referee deems it appropriate, all “natural 20” rolls automatically hit, and all “natural 1” rolls automatically miss.