HYPERBOREA » 1st level Adventures

Ghul · 5/25/2014 6:53 pm

I assume he means that most opponents were 1 HD or less and that the fighter was using heroic fighting with a mastered bastard sword. If such is the case, yes, the fighter is going to dish it out, but at 1st level, can he take it as well? That's where it's sketchy. ;) This is a game in which the fighter does not take a back seat to fighter subclasses.

Handy Haversack · 5/25/2014 9:28 pm

I don't use this phrase lightly, but: Oh. My. God. One of my players rolled up a berserker yesterday. First level. 17 DEX and dual-wielding long swords. He (she) did 65 points of damage in one round. The giant spider only had 6 HP!

I think I may have already posted that. But it's a hard thing to forget!

Yora · 5/26/2014 4:19 am

In all fairness, the fights were both best case situations with the fighter standing in the front of a door with the rest of the party behind him and the monsters all rushing from the same direction.
In the second one, the players specifically planned it that way, with the scout going into the giant rat tunnels to make them agressive and then run back out to get next to the fighter for the following slaughter. It's supposed to work that way.
With the spiders they just got lucky.
But I think people who dismiss fighters don't know how much impact heroic fighting has. And the game was originally designed to have hordes of low level enemies even at higher levels. With the limit being increased to 2HD creatures, it's even significantly better now.

The_Great_Lestrade · 5/26/2014 6:58 am

low level combat in old school games does tend to be a bit unpredicatable. In another system i had a starting party take down a 4hd water demon in 2 rounds without getting hit once by its d4 per round attacks. Then not long later they all failed to hit a 1hd Smilodon man guard who then cleaved on in two with his glaive. They then all fled.

mabon5127 · 5/26/2014 7:57 am

Handy Haversack wrote:
I don't use this phrase lightly, but: Oh. My. God. One of my players rolled up a berserker yesterday. First level. 17 DEX and dual-wielding long swords. He (she) did 65 points of damage in one round. The giant spider only had 6 HP!

I think I may have already posted that. But it's a hard thing to forget!

Just out of curiosity when Using heroic fighting with 2 weapon fighting do you allow one extra attack or two with the off hand. The rules don't directly address 2 w fighting but I only allow one extra attack with the off hand regardless. Not sure if this is correct or not.

Handy Haversack · 5/27/2014 8:39 am

mabon5127 wrote:
Handy Haversack wrote:
I don't use this phrase lightly, but: Oh. My. God. One of my players rolled up a berserker yesterday. First level. 17 DEX and dual-wielding long swords. He (she) did 65 points of damage in one round. The giant spider only had 6 HP!

I think I may have already posted that. But it's a hard thing to forget!
Just out of curiosity when Using heroic fighting with 2 weapon fighting do you allow one extra attack or two with the off hand. The rules don't directly address 2 w fighting but I only allow one extra attack with the off hand regardless. Not sure if this is correct or not.

Just regular old two weapons with weapon mastery and the crit. table. We may have done it wrong--the beers started early on Saturday.

Ah, indeed we did!

"A combatant with 13 or greater dexterity fights with a weapon in each hand in order to
gain one extra attack per round."

The funny thing is, it never would have made a difference except in the amazing overkill.

Handy Haversack · 5/27/2014 8:43 am

With wpn. mastery, that puts her still at 5/2 normally or 7/2 when berserk!

mabon5127 · 5/27/2014 9:45 am

Handy Haversack wrote:
With wpn. mastery, that puts her still at 5/2 normally or 7/2 when berserk!

Wouldn't it be 3/1?

Berserk gets you to 5/2 with mastery. Being 7th level raises that to 3/1? I'm I wrong? Just curious.

Regardless the 7th level berserker with an extra weapon becomes the party blender!

Morgan

Handy Haversack · 5/27/2014 10:44 am

mabon5127 wrote:
Berserk gets you to 5/2 with mastery.

Right. And 5/2 means round 1, 2 attacks; round 2, 3 attacks. And so an extra attack per round from dual wielding means:

Round 1: 3 attacks
Round 2: 4 attacks

Which would be 7/2!

Unless I'm still doing it wrong, which possibility I admit!

Ghul · 5/27/2014 11:17 am

Yes, that's right. The only thing that gives me pause is the very concept of dual-wielding while in a state of berserk rage. I see dual-wielding as requiring finesse and deliberate, tactical technique; berserk rage, to me, is the antithesis of this. So, I'm not sure I would allow it. Thoughts?

Blackadder23 · 5/27/2014 11:30 am

Historical miniature manufacturers almost invariably depict Viking berserkers with a weapon in each hand (I suppose to show that they scorn the use of a shield). How accurate this is I don't know.

Personally I don't use criticals or any of the advanced combat actions, because I like to keep combat as simple as possible. If the high potential damage output of fighter classes is a problem, I would certainly discard the criticals. Anyway, in my experience, players really only favor criticals until they're on the receiving end of one!

Druvas · 5/27/2014 11:38 am

Yeah, our group voted to not use criticals. Inevitably, we would suffer far worse than the enemy from them.

Agricola · 5/27/2014 11:57 am

I can see a Berserker style Dervish of the deserts whirling around with two scimitars. A worshipper of the Wendigo berserking with two cestus(cesti?). Think of Wolverine flipping out-pretty cool visual. This was only upon reflection on it, at first thought I was like no way would a Berserker be dual wielding while doing his thing, but I can see it now.

Handy Haversack · 5/27/2014 2:45 pm

It takes a 15 STR and a 15 CON to qualify for berserker. It's going to be pretty rare to also have the 13 DEX needed to dual wield--let alone the 17 you need to dual wield effectively. I don't know if I have aesthetic feelings one way or another about the issue--certainly nothing related to how it was BITD when Vikings were actually going all bare-sark. I suppose partly I just have it in my head now after playing on Sat.

This player (at his second gaming session ever) just happened to roll up an absolute monster set of stats. I can't imagine that happening very often!

Blackadder23 · 5/27/2014 3:05 pm

True, although a lot of monsters have three or four or more attacks every round. Wait until you roll a couple of critical hits and dish out 100 points of damage or so in a round. I'm guessing your players will lose their enthusiasm for the rule right about then...

Odysseus · 5/27/2014 3:07 pm

Ghul wrote:
Yes, that's right. The only thing that gives me pause is the very concept of dual-wielding while in a state of berserk rage. I see dual-wielding as requiring finesse and deliberate, tactical technique; berserk rage, to me, is the antithesis of this. So, I'm not sure I would allow it. Thoughts?

I can visualize a dual wielding berserk but it depends on the weapons he's using.
As a DM, I guess I would limit it to WC 1 weapons as they might be small and light enough to still feel instinctive while in rage.

Last edited by Odysseus (5/27/2014 3:08 pm)

mabon5127 · 5/27/2014 3:24 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
mabon5127 wrote:
Berserk gets you to 5/2 with mastery.

Right. And 5/2 means round 1, 2 attacks; round 2, 3 attacks. And so an extra attack per round from dual wielding means:

Round 1: 3 attacks
Round 2: 4 attacks

Which would be 7/2!

Unless I'm still doing it wrong, which possibility I admit!

yeah duh! I wasn't including the extra weapon.

mabon5127 · 5/27/2014 3:41 pm

Handy Haversack wrote:
I don't use this phrase lightly, but: Oh. My. God. One of my players rolled up a berserker yesterday. First level. 17 DEX and dual-wielding long swords. He (she) did 65 points of damage in one round. The giant spider only had 6 HP!

I think I may have already posted that. But it's a hard thing to forget!

He is indeed a thing of legend! However the first time that thing of legend wades through the party for 1D6 rounds or has to fall asleep when the second wave of creatures comes in he may understand the drawbacks!

Handy Haversack · 5/27/2014 5:10 pm

mabon5127 wrote:
Handy Haversack wrote:
I don't use this phrase lightly, but: Oh. My. God. One of my players rolled up a berserker yesterday. First level. 17 DEX and dual-wielding long swords. He (she) did 65 points of damage in one round. The giant spider only had 6 HP!

I think I may have already posted that. But it's a hard thing to forget!
He is indeed a thing of legend! However the first time that thing of legend wades through the party for 1D6 rounds or has to fall asleep when the second wave of creatures comes in he may understand the drawbacks!

Which, of course, happened, resulting in the pyromancer going down to -9 AGAIN when a very angry bear that had been stirred up by the combat against the spiders came charging out of the woods right after the rest of the party moved into the barn to investigate.

nDervish · 5/28/2014 5:49 am

Ghul wrote:
Yes, that's right. The only thing that gives me pause is the very concept of dual-wielding while in a state of berserk rage. I see dual-wielding as requiring finesse and deliberate, tactical technique; berserk rage, to me, is the antithesis of this. So, I'm not sure I would allow it. Thoughts?

First thing to my mind is a viking frothing at the mouth and furiously hacking with a pair of hand axes at anything within reach.

So, no, I have no problem at all with dual-wielding while berserk.