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2/02/2022 11:42 pm  #1


attack rate & sapping hands

can a fell paladin with a base attack rate of 3/2 make both a weapon attack and a touch attack on the second round of combat?

Last edited by Master Magician Rennalds (2/02/2022 11:47 pm)


"We alone of all mankind, who are sorcerers of high attainment and mastery, may endure the lethal ice-change and become breathers of the airless void, and thus, in the end, be made suitable for the provender of such as Rlim Shaikorth." sounds great unless you know what Provender means.
 

2/03/2022 8:59 am  #2


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

I'd say no, depending on the level. If he had a Natural 3/2 (ie high enough level), I'd say yes, but if he's getting 3/2 because of weapon Mastery, then no. The 3/2 would be provided by proficiency in the weapon.

Though I would allow it if they decided to do it as a Dual wielding attack, and subject to those penalties to attack on both hands...

But it's your game, you make all the rules...

Last edited by BlackKnight (2/03/2022 9:00 am)


-- 
BlackKnight, AKA Sausage
Older than Dirt, Crusty, and set in my ways. Been playing TTRPGs for over 45 years...
 

2/03/2022 11:05 am  #3


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

I would not allow it. I see "laying on hands" as requiring both hands. I feel this kind of stunt would be a player trying to put one over on me, and that never ends well at my table. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png

But you should do whatever you like. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

2/03/2022 3:40 pm  #4


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

I think I abide Black Knight's interpretation.

However, PCs tend to forget that once they use such a tactic then it's very likely to happen to them :-)

I generally don't try to do get to...fancy... with NPC tactics, at least with special combat actions and the like. I'll setup ambushes and the like though, but nothing too overwhelming. That's hard to judge though too since a party might react really poorly and choose the wrong tactics in response.

Not that I didn't almost have a TPK recently because of something like that or anything ;-)


What? Me worry?
 

2/03/2022 4:01 pm  #5


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

I guess my objection (beyond the "both hands" thing, which is just my interpretation) is that I don't see the "sapping hand" as a weapon. It's a special ability. To me this is like the player asking, "Can I fight with a sword in one hand and cast a spell with the other?" No, you may not. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

2/03/2022 7:34 pm  #6


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Blackadder23 wrote:

I guess my objection (beyond the "both hands" thing, which is just my interpretation) is that I don't see the "sapping hand" as a weapon. It's a special ability. To me this is like the player asking, "Can I fight with a sword in one hand and cast a spell with the other?" No, you may not. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

I was thinking the same thing, as it is a spell-like ability. Still, it's creative thinking, just trying it, so I hate to discourage creativity, but it could set a precedent in which all sorts of non-related activities get rolled into a multi-attack. Like BK alluded to, the 3/2 attack rate, assuming it is a mastered weapon, is intended for that weapon. It is the ultimate honing and mastery of that skill; as such, it should not be open to substitution with a special ability or anything else. At least that is not the intent, but if you think it's interesting and creative and you want to give your player the opportunity to execute the maneuver, go right ahead!  


 


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

2/03/2022 8:41 pm  #7


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Thanks for the feedback folks!

 


"We alone of all mankind, who are sorcerers of high attainment and mastery, may endure the lethal ice-change and become breathers of the airless void, and thus, in the end, be made suitable for the provender of such as Rlim Shaikorth." sounds great unless you know what Provender means.
     Thread Starter
 

2/06/2022 9:44 pm  #8


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Blackadder23 wrote:

I would not allow it. I see "laying on hands" as requiring both hands. I feel this kind of stunt would be a player trying to put one over on me, and that never ends well at my table. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png

But you should do whatever you like. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 

Didn't realize his touch attack meant Lay on Hands, that would have been a hard no in that case. Like you, I feel a Lay on Hands action describes itself... lay on HANDS...


-- 
BlackKnight, AKA Sausage
Older than Dirt, Crusty, and set in my ways. Been playing TTRPGs for over 45 years...
 

2/07/2022 10:08 pm  #9


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

To be fair, relegating the sapping hands ability to "pretending" to lay on hands every time, renders it arguably ineffectual and certainly monodimensional in the scheme of a larger campaign.

Trickery of that sort is hardly lawful evil-- which seeks to crush its foes forthrightly & with a perverse sense of honor rather than play such games.

if a fell paladin has to trick somebody every time he uses it, rather than making a touch attack that makes it a significantly worse ability than the versatile lay on hands in this ones opinion. 

and given that evil foes are more common than good ones in most campaigns the fell paladin is down 2 for 2 with its righteous wrath equivalent ability.

Last edited by Master Magician Rennalds (2/07/2022 10:09 pm)


"We alone of all mankind, who are sorcerers of high attainment and mastery, may endure the lethal ice-change and become breathers of the airless void, and thus, in the end, be made suitable for the provender of such as Rlim Shaikorth." sounds great unless you know what Provender means.
     Thread Starter
 

2/08/2022 11:58 am  #10


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Master Magician Rennalds wrote:

To be fair, relegating the sapping hands ability to "pretending" to lay on hands every time, renders it arguably ineffectual and certainly monodimensional in the scheme of a larger campaign.

Trickery of that sort is hardly lawful evil-- which seeks to crush its foes forthrightly & with a perverse sense of honor rather than play such games.

if a fell paladin has to trick somebody every time he uses it, rather than making a touch attack that makes it a significantly worse ability than the versatile lay on hands in this ones opinion. 

and given that evil foes are more common than good ones in most campaigns the fell paladin is down 2 for 2 with its righteous wrath equivalent ability.

I was actually thinking about this, mapping out the possibilities as I was writing up this class variant. I was thinking one possibility might be this: Suppose the fell paladin had taken substantial damage and was down to a few hp following a battle, but the barbarian in the party has 50-something hp remaining. If they are close enough comrades, perhaps the barbarian allows him- or herself to be drained so that the fell paladin is in better repair.
 


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

2/08/2022 3:02 pm  #11


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Master Magician Rennalds wrote:

To be fair, relegating the sapping hands ability to "pretending" to lay on hands every time, renders it arguably ineffectual and certainly monodimensional in the scheme of a larger campaign.

Trickery of that sort is hardly lawful evil-- which seeks to crush its foes forthrightly & with a perverse sense of honor rather than play such games.

if a fell paladin has to trick somebody every time he uses it, rather than making a touch attack that makes it a significantly worse ability than the versatile lay on hands in this ones opinion. 

and given that evil foes are more common than good ones in most campaigns the fell paladin is down 2 for 2 with its righteous wrath equivalent ability.

I don't think it would have to be limited to trickery. It could be used, for example, to torture a bound captive or the like. I would also allow it to be used in combat; it would just require both hands, and I wouldn't allow a player to treat it the same as a melee attack with a weapon (which you would need to do in order to "mix" it with a weapon attack). I also wouldn't allow a warlock to make both a touch spell attack and a weapon attack in the same round, or a monk to mix armed and unarmed attacks. Players need to be learn, the hard way if necessary, that they can't eat their cake and have it too. You can use a special ability or make a weapon attack/attacks. Not both.

That's my ruling anyhow. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

Last edited by Blackadder23 (2/08/2022 3:03 pm)


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

2/08/2022 3:34 pm  #12


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

I also wanted to add that the description of the fell paladin states "In rare circumstances, a paladin who falls from grace (typically due to murder, treachery, or consorting with dæmons) may become an exemplar of the Lawful Evil alignment." Apparently being an exemplar of the Lawful Evil alignment includes murder and treachery. https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


Michael Sipe 1979-2018
Rest in peace, brother.
 

2/08/2022 6:47 pm  #13


Re: attack rate & sapping hands

Some great points being made-- I appreciate the feedback!


"We alone of all mankind, who are sorcerers of high attainment and mastery, may endure the lethal ice-change and become breathers of the airless void, and thus, in the end, be made suitable for the provender of such as Rlim Shaikorth." sounds great unless you know what Provender means.
     Thread Starter
 

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