HYPERBOREA » Unarmed combat as mastery/grand mastery

gizmomathboy · 7/28/2020 11:39 am

So, I have an NPC that I'm thinking of having her prefer to use unarmed combat in general.

I thinking I would allow her to use her Grand Mastery for unarmed combat. So any bonuses and such from mastery would apply.

As an NPC I have her get these regardless, but for "normal" NPCs I hew kinda close to btb for the most part.

I just like the idea of a sailor/captain that can beat people up with her fists and all the other fun stuff that unarmed combat allows.

Or, would it better more in the spirit of the rules to have only mastery in one form of unarmed combat?

Caveman · 7/28/2020 2:37 pm

There is no FA bonus applied to any unarmed combat attacks, so my guess no Grand Mastery bonus. It would only apply to a normal fist attack (not sure what a kick or headbutt would do), but 1d2-1 +2 dam for GM and another +1 dam for Cæstuses. for total of 1d2+2 damage (no idea of any strength bonus). A dagger does 1d4. Might be a waste of the ability, but good fun. I gave a Savage Class NPC Weapon Mastery (Fist Fighting) as he was a street brawler, but he still prefers to use his rusty longsword in battle, whether with a 1/1 attack rate.

gizmomathboy · 7/28/2020 3:03 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "no FA bonus applied to unarmed combat attacks"?

Each class still rolls the unarmed attack on the table based on their FA.

A punch is a "weapon". I guess I'm positing that you could take mastering in punching. Thus getting attack and damage bonuses and better attack rate.

Can that mastery then get broadened to all of unarmed combat?

To be fair, as an NPC she'll have what I want her to have. It just occurred to me that maybe a PC could "benefit" from this line of discussion.

Caveman · 7/28/2020 4:05 pm

Yeah, my error. I do combat a different way and been doing it for 6 years, I thought I knew the rules, but twisted it to suit myself. I add FA as an attack bonus with any modifiers for Str or Dex. So a 7th-level fighter (Str 15) with a +1 longsword and weapon mastery is +7 to attack +1 Str modifiers, +1 magical sword, +1 Weapon mastery = +10 in total. I find it easier to do than scrolling a chart.

So, by that theory Unarmed combat could benefit from Grand Mastery if it was taken in (Unarmed Combat style), but I would think that is find. But perhaps an official opinion is needed as individually Grand Mastery (Grapple) could be a wrestler. Grand Mastery (pummelling) could be a boxer and Grand Mastery (Overbear) could be used by the Chief Constable to subdue rowdies?

The negative is a low damage die of 1d2-1, so granting the 4 abilities as one set seems fine?

gizmomathboy · 7/29/2020 7:33 am

Yeah, it was just a weird thought I had for this NPC.

It would really be an odd choice for a PC, but for a sailor that might get into a few bar fights? That seemed like a fun thing to think through.

Using FA that way does make sense with the way Ghul layed out the combat matrix.

Caveman · 7/29/2020 9:57 am

lol, I guess if damage was too high, pub brawls would end too quickly.

I suppose a brief arena/pit-fighting scenario which a player controlled a group of PCs, each assign various fighting styles based on brawling and gladiator type fighting would suit the idea and have palyers compete against each other. I did a similar idea once (but NPC vs NPC) for a Conan RPG PbP outside of Shadizar in a tent-town environment. A night on the town at the pit, also would help new players get use to various fighting abilities provided by rules...

Yeah, I mentioned in another post my error, because the stacked bonuses are against FA 0. Things you can forget, just not the things ya wanna forget!!!

DMPrata · 7/30/2020 7:44 pm

I’d restrict each mastery to one attack form (grapple, overbear, pummel, or push), but otherwise, why not?

mabon5127 · 7/31/2020 7:55 am

I love the Grand-master ability of the fighter! I think it sets the class apart. The only thing that is a bit fiddly is that a Grand-master of fists could fairly easily defeat a Monk. Balance of classes is not the goal as the Monk has other significant abilities, but it is an odd outcome.

gizmomathboy · 7/31/2020 1:05 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, I can definitely see restricting it to each type.

I didn't go check out the comparison with the monk but...while I'm here.

The stun feature of pummel seemed a bit better than the general stun feature of monks, especially with the difference in FA between monks and fighters after 1st level. That extra FA or 2 tilts things quickly.

The monk will be AC 7 for the most part...and the fighter...well...easily AC 6 but more likely AC 5 up to AC 4.

Man, just that is gruesome to think about comparing a 4th level monk to 4th level fighter, both with ceastus.

The fighter needs a 7 with Grand Mastery to AC 7, and 14 or more to create a stun opportunity. Doing 1d2+2
of damage with an attack rate of 3/2.

Monk needs a 9 to hit AC 7 and 12 to hit AC 4 needing a natural 19 or 20 to stun (assuming they don't go into
pummelling mode, then they need a 16 or 19). Doing 1d4+3 of dmg.

Honestly, I don't see any PC doing something like this, but the fighter would just beat the monk down. Honestly,
a fighter would regardless mostly because of the disparity in FA and attack method.

Hmmm, pummelling by fighter types is kinda an interesting tactic. Well, any of the unarmed stuff is great to use en masse.

gizmomathboy · 7/31/2020 1:07 pm

mabon5127 wrote:
I love the Grand-master ability of the fighter! I think it sets the class apart. The only thing that is a bit fiddly is that a Grand-master of fists could fairly easily defeat a Monk. Balance of classes is not the goal as the Monk has other significant abilities, but it is an odd outcome.

Even Mastery of pummelling is an interesting idea. Higher attack rate along with a better chance of stunning and better damage.

One is usually equipped with your fists, feet, and knees. Unless you get literally disarmed you can still be a damn effective fighter.

Caveman · 8/01/2020 4:17 am

Gizmo wrote:
Even Mastery of pummelling is an interesting idea. Higher attack rate along with a better chance of stunning and better damage.

One is usually equipped with your fists, feet, and knees. Unless you get literally disarmed you can still be a damn effective fighter.

Especially if Conan format and character has a Str 18, the monk cannot add both Str and accurate strike and would not start to benefit if they had a Str 18 till 10th-level.

I still think it would be a close fight. Both are combatants in some form and the rolls of the dice could go one way or the other? Especially if it a unofficial street brawl (pit fight/arena) and none is allowed any form of armour. Be usual for a pub brawl and fighter has donned plate and shield.

Monks get a good array of weapons to use which they can add their accurate strike too, so thinking of the picture of the three adventurers coming out the water (at the back of) the Lost Treasure of Atlantis and at least the monk would be mostly ready for action and we must look at the world and its environmental dangers.

A fighter might not have armour because of some effect. Blackadder's story the Black Fief, (which I had read again last week) and the fighter had to pull his armour off as acid was dissolving it from a blob. Also a dangerous rust monsters can cause a fighter to be cut down (at least in the next encounter).

We looking a this as a one on one fight. But as Jeff says, monks have other qualities a fighter might crave, especially when he starts falling down a 40 feet pit?

If I think about it, no class should win a one on one fight against a fighter (at equal levels of course). That what he does. A player that wants a Jet Li monk should just take fighter and a high Dexterity and eventually get himself a ring of protection and he can walk though the world stripped to the waist...

Again there is the positives and the negatives, he cannot heal (self or others) and he cannot not catch arrow with his teeth.

gizmomathboy · 8/01/2020 12:46 pm

Yep, that is why I think I love Hyperborea so much. It took the rough edges off of 1e.

Each class isn't watered down or something. Fighters are a good choice in the long list of choices, not just a compromise that gets swallowed up by magicians and such around 5th level.

There is no "power balance", there are trade-offs for each class and it matters.

I love monks since they can keep a party alive when encountering disease bearing creatures as well as venomous ones.

I really do love that fighters have Weapon Mastery. It can really matter in a fight that they get that extra attack with that extra to hit and damage bonus.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, it never occurred to me to take mastery in unarmed combat. It only occurred to me when I had to flesh out a captain which are treated as fighters. Then I figured as a woman she would need to hold her own in all sorts of situations. Being a drunk probably meant lots of pub brawls. Even just narrowing mastery to one form, taking pummelling gives her such an advantage against most other sailors. She's going to have a very good chance on stunning them, collecting her winnings, and getting back to drinking.

She still had a slot to use something like a short spear which I think fits with a sailor. Also, her uncle Agathon has mastery in short spear which gave some credence to something a sailor/captain would use.

Then chosing Grand Mastery in pummelling? That's just overkill really and I like having this drunken sailor just beating the snot out of anyone with her fists alone.

It probably doesn't hurt to keep the crew in line, just walking up to some insubordinate deck hand and slapping them into unconsciousness.

Also, yeah, getting a high DX to get another attack per round...definitely Jet Li territory :-)

Caveman · 8/02/2020 3:33 am

gizmomathboy wrote:
Also, yeah, getting a high DX to get another attack per round...definitely Jet Li territory :-)

True, and also to get a better dodge (AC).

rhialto · 8/04/2020 5:52 am

gizmomathboy wrote:
Yep, that is why I think I love Hyperborea so much. It took the rough edges off of 1e.

Each class isn't watered down or something. Fighters are a good choice in the long list of choices, not just a compromise that gets swallowed up by magicians and such around 5th level.

There is no "power balance", there are trade-offs for each class and it matters.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about AS&SH, too: well said.

mabon5127 · 8/04/2020 9:26 am

rhialto wrote:
gizmomathboy wrote:
Yep, that is why I think I love Hyperborea so much. It took the rough edges off of 1e.

Each class isn't watered down or something. Fighters are a good choice in the long list of choices, not just a compromise that gets swallowed up by magicians and such around 5th level.

There is no "power balance", there are trade-offs for each class and it matters.
Pretty much sums up how I feel about AS&SH, too: well said.

The poison of modern iterations of dnd is balance.

It takes some molding when a player has that baggage.

Cool does not come from the amount of damage one generates in a turn.

Running away is an option.

gizmomathboy · 8/04/2020 1:20 pm

mabon5127 wrote:
Running away is an option.

Yep, what's this "challenge rating" stuff?

I try not to make it to unbalanced, but sometimes you can never know.

Yeah, sometimes you aren't ready to take on that particular encounter..