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2/22/2020 10:13 pm  #1


Quick Phased Combat Question

What happens in the following situation:

Declaration:
- Fighter says he wants to move to the Orc 15’ away and attack.
- GM decides Orc wants to move 15’ to the door (15’ further away from the fighter) and open it.

Initiative is rolled and Fighter wins.

Phase One:
- Fighter moves 15’ toward the Orc and ends up next to him.
- Orc Moves 15’ away towards the door.

Phase Two:
- Does Fighter get an attack as the Orc moves away in Phase One as if the Orc was fleeing?
-or-
- Fighter is SoL because Orc moved away, and now can’t attack?

Thanks, in advance, for the clarification.

 

2/22/2020 11:46 pm  #2


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

I think I answered my own question as I went back to read the Combat section and realized that in my example above, the Fighter could 1/2 Move and Attack all in Phase One, so he would get to the Orc and attack before the Orc moved away..

     Thread Starter
 

2/23/2020 6:46 am  #3


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

You did answer your own question, and the most succinct description we came up with on the board for phased combat is:

1. winners of initiative perform their Phase 1 actions
2. losers of initiative perform their Phase 1 actions
3. winners of initiative perform their Phase 2 actions
4. losers of initiative perform their Phase 2 actions


"It is all very well to point out that the man lacks facility; as he asserts, sheer force can overpower sophistication."
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellous
 

2/26/2020 1:51 pm  #4


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

Yep, you concisely answered yourself. 15 and attack in phase 1 for the fighter would happen before the orc moving 15 more feet away.
 


-- 
BlackKnight, AKA Sausage
Older than Dirt, Crusty, and set in my ways. Been playing TTRPGs for over 45 years...
 

2/27/2020 10:43 am  #5


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

Technically, combat movement is simultaneous; we clarified this point in the Second Edition Players’ Manual. Assuming both the fighter and the orc have MV 30, then they each would move 15 feet during phase one; the fighter would end up where the orc started, and the orc would end up at the door. In phase two, the fighter would continue his movement to the door and (based on the fighter’s winning initiative) attack the orc before the orc opened the door.

 

2/27/2020 7:56 pm  #6


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

Hmmm, guess I need to revisit the rules...so, RAW, is the orc trying to open the door in front of him not considered a "movement", and so not considered "simultaneous" as the fighter moves 15' towards the orc opening the door? With such few categories of Combat Actions I think I'd classify the "open door" as a movement...

I think I'd rule:
If "movement" is simultaneous, then the orc has a chance* to move 15' and open the door before the fighter can move 30' and attack, even though the fighter won initiative.

*And this is where I'd invoke the Non-Standard Task Resolution of x in 6 chance, or maybe a Saving Throw; probably by having the player of the fighter roll to see if he gets to the orc before the door is opened.

And here I thought the succinct 4-bullet point answer was the EABA...
 


"It is all very well to point out that the man lacks facility; as he asserts, sheer force can overpower sophistication."
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellous
 

2/28/2020 10:50 am  #7


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

rhialto wrote:

Hmmm, guess I need to revisit the rules...so, RAW, is the orc trying to open the door in front of him not considered a "movement", and so not considered "simultaneous" as the fighter moves 15' towards the orc opening the door? With such few categories of Combat Actions I think I'd classify the "open door" as a movement...

I think I'd rule:
If "movement" is simultaneous, then the orc has a chance* to move 15' and open the door before the fighter can move 30' and attack, even though the fighter won initiative.

*And this is where I'd invoke the Non-Standard Task Resolution of x in 6 chance, or maybe a Saving Throw; probably by having the player of the fighter roll to see if he gets to the orc before the door is opened.

And here I thought the succinct 4-bullet point answer was the EABA...
 

See VOL. III, p. 240: COMBAT, other potential actions. Melee, missiles, magic, and movement are not quite all encompassing (though we tried). Players will propose actions that don’t fit firmly in any of those buckets, and the referee will need to rule case by case.

 

2/28/2020 3:16 pm  #8


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

DMPrata wrote:

See VOL. III, p. 240: COMBAT, other potential actions. Melee, missiles, magic, and movement are not quite all encompassing (though we tried). Players will propose actions that don’t fit firmly in any of those buckets, and the referee will need to rule case by case.

Indeed: I see this is as one of those cases, and don't think RAW dictates one way or another. Thanks!


"It is all very well to point out that the man lacks facility; as he asserts, sheer force can overpower sophistication."
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellous
 

2/29/2020 9:59 am  #9


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

It's situations like these that probably had me removing "simultaneous movement regardless of initiative results" from the 2E hardback. I recall that during the Players' Manual development, David thought it was a feature that we should not have lost, as it was part of the 1e boxed set, and I wasn't in disagreement. 

The spirit of the rule, as I had originally intended, was this: When two combatants whose intended actions are to move and engage one another, they meet at about middle of their respective starting points (based on their respective movement rates). It's a fine rule for adjudicating those situations, because each combatant advances and the initiative winner attacks first, typically speaking.  

But then we have situations as illustrated above. If movement is simultaneous regardless of initiative results, it begs the question: When is an initiative winner not an initiative winner? Why, when there is movement involved, of course! So, there are situations where I am not overly fond of the rule, and it brings me back to why I probably phased it out from the 2E hardback, because after ten years playing this game, I've seen so many situations where it makes perfect sense, and other situations where it's problematic. 

During the initial development of the game (2008–2011), I was trying to achieve a system of combat resolution that did not give the impression of pawns taking turns moving in a chess match. In those years I was really tired of 3E combat on grids, and all these combatants paused on the grid, waiting for others to take their turns. In AS&SH, I think that we do achieve superior flow with phased combat, and sometimes with the implementation of simultaneous movement, but I can see that situations like the fleeing orc and pursuing fighter can have less than ideal results.

These days I'm more inclined to ignore simultaneous movement, unless it pertains specifically to two enemies advancing towards one another with intention to engage. I want that fighter to move half and cut down that orc; and I'd want the orc to be able to do the same, if the shoe were on the other foot. Of course, you are the master of your own game, and all rules are guidelines for you to use as you see fit. AS&SH is still evolving and refining, even after a decade. Do what thou wilt, my friends!


HYPERBOREA- A Role-Playing Game of Swords, Sorcery, and Weird Science-Fantasy
 

3/01/2020 2:53 pm  #10


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

Thanks for the insight into the thinking behind the rules. I appreciate it.

     Thread Starter
 

3/01/2020 9:04 pm  #11


Re: Quick Phased Combat Question

Ghul wrote:

In AS&SH, I think that we do achieve superior flow with phased combat...I want that fighter to move half and cut down that orc; and I'd want the orc to be able to do the same, if the shoe were on the other foot.

To me this is the charming simplicity of the phased combat, and the succinct 4 bullet-points: consistently applied, they keep combat moving along.


"It is all very well to point out that the man lacks facility; as he asserts, sheer force can overpower sophistication."
Jack Vance, Rhialto the Marvellous
 

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